Concept2 Training Forum - Training, Indoor Rower - Training
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mpukita
CONFESSIONS continued ...

LEVEL 2 ...

1K W/U @ 2:30 ---> 2:05 pace ...

4x2000 w/1000 recovery (2:30 pace or less) after all 4 sets + 1-2 minutes stretch on ball due to lower back "tightness/fatigue" after first 3 ... total rest about 6 to 7 minutes (active/passive combination).

1) 2:02.9/24
2) 2:02.7/25
3) 2:02.6/25
4) 2:02.3/25

This was my first time for this workout. It was work, but not outlandish. No falling off the erg while still strapped in, but not fun. Target was set at about 1.08 x 2K PB pace (1:54) = 2:03. I have a mild cold but noticed no impact from it.

Still trying to find "current training limit" for just about all Levels. Getting closer. Can't wait to be doing these all under 2:00. Maybe next time I should just go for it?
mpukita
A quick L3 question for the group ...

In the copy of the Plan I have, it says, for Level 3:

"Sample workouts include continuous 12K (beginning at shorter distances in the fall and progressing to even longer distances by spring); 2 x 6K (with 7-8’ recovery between pieces); and 15 x 3’ (with 1’ recovery between pieces)."

Is that 15 reps of 3 minutes?

Just wanted to make sure there wasn't a typo in my copy. Seems like a very different workout than the continuous piece at 12K or the two 6K pieces.

Thanks -- Mark

bmoore
QUOTE(mpukita @ Nov 11 2005, 02:16 PM)
CONFESSIONS continued ...

LEVEL 2 ...

1K W/U @ 2:30 ---> 2:05 pace ...

4x2000 w/1000 recovery (2:30 pace or less) after all 4 sets + 1-2 minutes stretch on ball due to lower back "tightness/fatigue" after first 3 ... total rest about 6 to 7 minutes (active/passive combination).

1) 2:02.9/24
2) 2:02.7/25
3) 2:02.6/25
4) 2:02.3/25

This was my first time for this workout.  It was work, but not outlandish.  No falling off the erg while still strapped in, but not fun.  Target was set at about 1.08 x 2K PB pace (1:54) = 2:03.  I have a mild cold but noticed no impact from it. 

Still trying to find "current training limit" for just about all Levels.  Getting closer.  Can't wait to be doing these all under 2:00.  Maybe next time I should just go for it?
*



Let the training dictate your training. ohmy.gif

Don't just "go for it" with these workouts. Each time you do this workout, drop your goal pace down to the next whole second (2:02). You'll average just under this based on your splits above. Each time you'll make steady progress.

The worst thing is to go for it and have to put the handle down. I've done this too many times. It's frustrating, but not so much that I don't remember to to just let the training dictate the training. My ego gets in the way, and then I blow it, and then I have a setback that can affect other workouts that week. Anyway, be cautious and remember this is a long term commitment you're making to yourself.
Mike Caviston
Here are some Level 4 observations based on recent discussion:

Reference Paces can be tricky, so it’s important to try to choose one you can stick with for an entire training season. In the absence of a reliable 2K score, probably the best alternative is to estimate 2K ability from a Level 1 workout. This of course assumes the Level 1 workout is performed correctly and with a near-maximal effort. If the L4 workouts feel too easy, one way to increase intensity is too use a more rapid rate of increase in strokes/workout (beyond the suggested 1 stroke/10’/week). But make sure there is room on the sequence charts to keep increasing without passing 200 strokes/10’ before the end of your training season. If you reach the point where you are doing 1200 strokes in an hour and it’s only midway through the season, something has gone seriously wrong. Another option if workouts seem too easy is to increase the length of the workouts. This may not be the best solution since there will be practical limits as to how long you are able to row. Going from say 50’ to 60’ may be a temporary solution, but chances are if you don’t have the correct Ref Pace then the longer workout will soon start to feel too “easy” again.

Execution of the workouts with the correct stroke rates is essential to create the structured format for gradual, long-term improvement. If you want to do a workout with higher rates and higher meter totals, there is already a training band called level 3.

I think people are overthinking the setting of the monitor for subintervals. I always set for 10’ (or 6’) and am perfectly happy with the results. [That is, a 60’ workout is set up as a continuous 60’ row but I recover the 6’ or 10’ meter/pace totals after the workout along with the grand total.] I can review the meter total for each 10’ sequence and how it compares to my goal and see my overall consistency for a given sequence (e.g., 190) from one week to the next. Setting for 2’ sub-intervals isn’t necessarily better information because in that small a time frame the average spm or meter total can vary significantly depending on whether you happen to be on the recovery or on the drive when the next 2’ segment begins. Over 6-10’, things even out pretty well. When using the PM2 there is less information available on the monitor during the workout, so you have to accept on faith that you are reaching your goals though I have calculated my meter goals by the first 10’, 20’, 30’ etc. so I know if I am on target as the workout progresses. With enough practice and experience I have found I can pretty accurately estimate what my meter total was for each segment without actually seeing until the workout is over; I can just tell by how well each segment seems to be going at the time and if I seem to be a little ahead, a little behind, or right on my goal paces. These days I almost exclusively use the PM3, which allows a little more information to be viewed during the actual workout. I set up the screen to see my overall average pace as well as my average pace for each segment (10’ or 6’) of the workout. That gives more direct feedback about how each segment is going. If, say, one of the segments is 180 (4’/3’/2’/1’), I know exactly where I am for the first 4’ of the segment and can still estimate pretty well over the final 6’. I know what the average pace should be for each segment so as I finish one segment and move on to another I know how well I did on the completed segment.

Using index cards or sticky notes or whatever on or near the monitor to keep the workout’s rate and pace changes available for reference is a good practice. But it probably won’t be too long before you chunk all the bits of information for each sequence so that terms like “180” and “188” automatically bring to mind the necessary formats so you don’t have to think in terms of “4’ @16spm @ 2:02, then 3’ @ 18spm @ 1:58, then…” etc. Then all you have to memorize before a workout are the actual sequences you will be using. I never count strokes during a workout for a particular time period but that doesn’t mean that others can’t. I just pay attention to keeping the rate consistent on the monitor. One little trick I do is, if I’m trying to pull @ 18spm and I inadvertently see “19” for a stroke on the monitor, I try to relax enough that I soon see a “17” to compensate. But it gets messy if you see-saw back and forth between 17 & 19 when you’re trying to hold 18, so I really concentrate on holding the one desired rate.

It appears that many people are avoiding sequences that follow the 4’/3’/2’/1’ format or the pyramid sequences (176, 186, 196) and simply alternating 2’ at a time between two different rates. I think of the “2s” and the “8s” sequences (178, 182, 188, 192 etc.) as filler between the more challenging and productive “6s” and “10s” (186, 196, 180, 190, 200). The Level 4 format is meant to be more varied than a simple alternation of “up 2” and “down 2” every two minutes or alternating the same two sequences for an entire workout. Now, that is boring!

Also, why not get into the odd number sequences (178, 186, 190, 198 etc.)? Consult the PaceVsRate chart:

Click to view attachment

Everything becomes simpler and smoother with a few million more meters under your belt, so hang in there.

Mike Caviston
arakawa
Confessions of a Wolverine Plan Newbie
Day 4: Level 4 / 4x10' @ L4 -4 pace

Full disclosure: Although this was my fourth daily WP workout, my plan called for me to do it Thursday morning, not this (Friday) evening. I don't have a good excuse for why I didn't do it on Thursday like I was supposed to. Don't ask me for the excuse and I won't lie to you about it.

Today's workout was a 4x10', made up of the following intervals:
  • 10' @ 2:10 / 16 SPM --> 2308 m
  • 10' @ 2:06 / 18 SPM --> 2381 m
  • 10' @ 2:10 / 16 SPM --> 2308 m
  • 10' @ 2:06 / 18 SPM --> 2381 m
Actual distances & stroke rates:
  • 2320 m / 16 SPM (+12 m)
  • 2383 m / 18 SPM (+2 m)
  • 2318 m / 16 SPM (+10 m)
  • 2380 m / 18 SPM (-1 m)
Observations:
  • My target paces were derived by taking my 2k reference pace (1:48), subtracting four seconds (arriving at 1:44), then looking up the 16 SPM and 18 SPM paces from the Level 4 pace chart. The 16 SPM pace I used today is actually 5 s faster than the 16 SPM pace I used in my previous Level 4 workout (the 18 SPM pace I used today is 4 s faster than the 18 SPM pace I used in my previous Level 4 workout).
  • I haven't figured out how to set up intervals on my PM2 where one timed piece is followed by another timed piece, so I decided to time 10' for the work pieces, then measure 507 m for my 2:30 recovery piece. My thinking was, if my recovery pace is 2:32, I'll need to figure out how far I go in 2 s at that pace. It's 7 m. However, I added it to 500 m instead of subtracting it, so my recovery pieces were actually 2:34 instead of 2:30.
  • This workout seemed even easier than my previous level 4 workout (40' = 176/180/176/180). I had all sorts of gas left in the tank, despite doing a level 2 workout this morning. I even did a 2k cooldown.
I was trying to figure out my next 4x10' Level 4 workout, and came across Mike Caviston's post on Creating Level 4 Workouts. I seemed to have been confused from the start about how to set up 4x10' workouts in the first place. Mike says
  • when selecting the stroke rates for a 4x10', the rule of thumb is to add 2 SPM to my base continuous rate (e.g. from 18.6 SPM to 20.6 SPM), and select four 10' intervals that give me that higher stroke rate.
  • the recovery period is one-third (not one-fourth) the work period, so the recovery period for a 4x10' is 3:20 (not 2:30).
I'll have to look through my notes to find out how I came to my erroneous conclusions about what a 4x10' and its corresponding recovery periods are supposed to be.

In any case, my next 4x10' Level 4 workout will be a week from yesterday. I'll pick out four 10' pieces so that the average stroke rate is 19.8 (my 40' and 60' continuous are both 17.8 SPM this week).
Mike Caviston
QUOTE(arakawa @ Nov 11 2005, 11:27 PM)
Day 4: Level 4 / 4x10' @ L4 -4 pace


Am I understanding you correctly? Your workout was 4 x 10’, and each 10’ was the same flat rate for the entire duration, and the pace you chose was your 2K-based Ref Pace minus four?? What on earth does this have to do with Level 4 or the Wolverine Plan? I don’t see how I could have stated more clearly or directly that these modifications are exactly what NOT to do if you want to follow the Wolverine Plan. You can do whatever workouts you want; it’s none of my business. But PLEASE don’t refer to them as “Wolverine Plan” workouts!

Mike Caviston
bmoore
QUOTE(arakawa @ Nov 11 2005, 11:27 PM)
In any case, my next 4x10' Level 4 workout will be a week from yesterday. I'll pick out four 10' pieces so that the average stroke rate is 19.8 (my 40' and 60' continuous are both 17.8 SPM this week).
*



Masa,

If you want to do 4x10', and average 19.8, then do a 196/200/196/200 session.

The 196 is a pyramid of 2' each @ 18, 20, 22, 20, 18
The 200 is 4' @ 18, 3' @ 20, 2' @ 22, 1' @ 24

Your paces should be 16 - 2:14, 18 - 2:09, 20 - 2:05, 22 - 2:00, 24 - 1:56. Stick with these paces for this season.

It looks like you bumped your reference pace because this workout is too easy. I'd have to agree that the way you set it up is too easy. I'd recommend skipping the 4x10' for now. Let your L4 workouts be ENDURANCE workouts and not some modified interval workouts. If you're doing L1 & L2 intervals, along with L3 distance workouts, then you'll need the longer L4 workouts to balance your training week.

It looks like you attempted 140' of L4 last week over 3 sessions. Next week do 180' over 3 sessions or 150' over 2 sessions. (I'd do 2 sessions - 70' & a 2x40'. These are a pain in the butt, literally, but they do build endurance, and hitting your pace/rate combo beyond 60 minutes is a mental & physical endurance challenge).

I'm pretty much only doing 10' sets. I set it for 60' with 10' splits. (I'm using RowPro). I want to get a body of work under me this year, and then I'll look at the other variations Mike has suggested.

So, keep the reference pace constant but increase the duration and start moving up the progressions. You have enough to worry about with increasing the pace on the L1 & L2 workouts. Increase your time or your total number of strokes each week (if you're hitting your pace and distance goals). Don't increase both in the same week.

Keep at it. Every workout is a learning opportunity. (So is every post to this forum, apparently).
Bill
QUOTE(Mike Caviston @ Nov 11 2005, 11:38 PM)
QUOTE(arakawa @ Nov 11 2005, 11:27 PM)
Day 4: Level 4 / 4x10' @ L4 -4 pace


Am I understanding you correctly? Your workout was 4 x 10’, and each 10’ was the same flat rate for the entire duration, and the pace you chose was your 2K-based Ref Pace minus four?? What on earth does this have to do with Level 4 or the Wolverine Plan? I don’t see how I could have stated more clearly or directly that these modifications are exactly what NOT to do if you want to follow the Wolverine Plan. You can do whatever workouts you want; it’s none of my business. But PLEASE don’t refer to them as “Wolverine Plan” workouts!

Mike Caviston
*



Both of you,

I think I can see whats happened here.

Has there been a misinterpretation of one of the other posts by Mike - "Alternative 4 x 10' workout - 9 March 09:57:39PM" ?

Bill
Bill
Carla,

I have wdifficulty with the 16s as well.

Am trying to use a Rowpro pace boat to guide me but have massive difficulty doing a slow strong stroke at 16 and stay exactly with the paceboat rower.

Tendency to do strong quick leg push and then burn off some time elsewhere.

What puzzles me is that 18s are great no problem at all. They feel good.

Bill
mpukita
QUOTE(bmoore @ Nov 11 2005, 09:34 PM)
QUOTE(mpukita @ Nov 11 2005, 02:16 PM)
CONFESSIONS continued ...

LEVEL 2 ...

1K W/U @ 2:30 ---> 2:05 pace ...

4x2000 w/1000 recovery (2:30 pace or less) after all 4 sets + 1-2 minutes stretch on ball due to lower back "tightness/fatigue" after first 3 ... total rest about 6 to 7 minutes (active/passive combination).

1) 2:02.9/24
2) 2:02.7/25
3) 2:02.6/25
4) 2:02.3/25

This was my first time for this workout.  It was work, but not outlandish.  No falling off the erg while still strapped in, but not fun.  Target was set at about 1.08 x 2K PB pace (1:54) = 2:03.  I have a mild cold but noticed no impact from it. 

Still trying to find "current training limit" for just about all Levels.  Getting closer.  Can't wait to be doing these all under 2:00.  Maybe next time I should just go for it?
*



Let the training dictate your training. ohmy.gif

Don't just "go for it" with these workouts. Each time you do this workout, drop your goal pace down to the next whole second (2:02). You'll average just under this based on your splits above. Each time you'll make steady progress.

The worst thing is to go for it and have to put the handle down. I've done this too many times. It's frustrating, but not so much that I don't remember to to just let the training dictate the training. My ego gets in the way, and then I blow it, and then I have a setback that can affect other workouts that week. Anyway, be cautious and remember this is a long term commitment you're making to yourself.
*



Bill:

Agreed. In fact, I couldn't agree with you more.

When I asked about "going for it", it was a question about setting my new target at 2:00 pace rather than 2:02 or 2:03, as the 2:04 pace seemed a bit too easy and I am yet to find my current training limit within this specific workout. NOT just ripping out the 4 fastest 2Ks possible.

This was the first time I did it, and I used Mike's absolute mimimum suggested target of reference pace x 1.08. I'm thinking I could drop 3 to 4 seconds a set (in pace) and still achieve the target across all 4 sets. Now that I think about it, maybe I'm dreaming, because these ARE 2Ks!

-- Mark
arakawa
Confessions of a Wolverine Plan Newbie
Day 5: Level 3 / 12k @ 2k x 115.6%

Full disclosure: Although this was my fifth daily WP workout, my plan called for me to do it Friday morning, not this (Saturday) morning. I had two workouts yesterday to make up my missed Wednesday and Thursday workouts. Today's going to be another two-a-day day, where I do my Saturday Level 4 workout this evening. Then, I'll be all caught up for this week (Sunday is my rest day). By the way, two-a-days are tiring. It takes a lot of discipline to keep to even a one-a-day for six days a week (something I failed to do twice in my first four days); imagine how much discipline one must exercise to average one and a half workouts a day for six days a week. That discipline difference is probably one of the big reasons why my 2k times haven't improved for about a year while Mike Caviston's the world record holder and setting PBs at age 40.

Today's Level 3 workout is a 12k continuous at 2:04.6. I nailed the average pace, and pulled the piece at 22 SPM.

Observations:
  • Before I started, I was very confident that I could do the 12k at 2:04.6, since I did a half marathon about three weeks ago at 2:04.3. The fact that I rowed over 30k yesterday with my makeup Level 2 and Level 4 workouts did make today's Level 3 workout a bit more challenging, however.
My next Level 3 continuous workout is two weeks from yesterday. I think I'll up the distance from 12k to 13k while keeping the pace at 2:04.6.
Mike Caviston
QUOTE(mpukita @ Nov 11 2005, 04:37 PM)
A quick L3 question for the group ...
In the copy of the Plan I have, it says, for Level 3:
"Sample workouts include continuous 12K (beginning at shorter distances in the fall and progressing to even longer distances by spring)... and 15 x 3’ (with 1’ recovery between pieces)." ...Is that 15 reps of 3 minutes? ...Seems like a very different workout than the continuous piece at 12K.


In my experience, there are three workouts which most closely relate to 2K ability. The first/best predictor of my 2K ability is 4 x 1K (Level 1); the next best predictor is 4 x 2K (Level 2); and third is a Level 3 interval workout.

I have referred to Level 3 intervals periodically over the past couple years but here is a chance to clarify and consolidate information. First off, Level 3 intervals (I’ll say L3I for short) are (like 4 x 10’/L4) a supplementary or advanced workout to be done in conjunction with a weekly Continuous Level 3. [As explained previously, one of the cornerstones of a WP program should be a continuous Level 3 of 60’ or more.] Some basic points about L3I:
1) The basic format is a 3:1 work:recovery ratio. I suggest 3’ on/1’ off, 4’ on/1’20” off, or 5’ on/1’40” off. I always used these formats in a team setting so that slower and faster athletes could all stay on the same start/stop schedule. But for my personal workouts I prefer to use distance for the work intervals; the two formats I favor involve either 1250m or 1500m for each work interval (1K might be appropriate for slower athletes). I set the recovery interval as 1/3 of the estimated time for my work interval (since this involves extra math some might prefer to stick to 3’ on/1’ off.) The 1500m interval is actually pretty easy to work with since the recovery interval would be the same as your overall workout GP.
2) The total distance for the L3I work intervals should add up to somewhere between 75-90% of the distance you cover during 60’ of continuous Level 3 rowing. No need to be obsessed with the exact percentage; adjust it to suit your needs and abilities. But that’s a ballpark figure. That would probably mean something like 12-15 x 3’, 8-10 x 1500m, etc.
3) The intensity is roughly (60’ Level 3 Continuous pace) – 3 seconds. E.g., if Level 3 Continuous is 1:51, then L3I is 1:48 (at least to get started). [In Watts, the L3I pace would be about 8% faster than Continuous.] As with other relationships between intensities for different workouts, use it as a rough guide to get started but let the specific workout develop its own history and progress.
4) The recovery can be pretty light, but keep moving. For Level 1 & 2 workouts with higher intensity, the recovery needs to be even more active. For L3I, paddling lightly is fine; just don’t stop entirely.
5) Pacing for each work interval should be continuous or negative split. I prefer to do them with essentially continuous pacing using a small negative split. I prefer to avoid hitting it too hard at the start of each interval, but just settle quickly into my planned Goal Pace.
6) Pacing across the entire workout should also be fairly even with a slight negative split. My format is currently 10 x 1500m (1:45r), so the math is pretty simple when I figure out my strategy. For example, to average 1:46.2 for the entire workout, I do two intervals @ 1:47 and the remaining eight @ 1:46.
7) This workout is deceptively enjoyable in the early stages. It is fun and it is easy to make rapid gains initially. But eventually you cross a threshold and one day you sit down and get blindsided by one of the toughest workouts you can remember doing. I’ve coached athletes who refer to this as the “Level 2 from h3ll”, because the paces get pretty fast and it just goes on and on. In my training, by the end of the season my L3I pace surpasses my initial Level 2 pace from the start of the season. It might be called “Level 2.5”.
8) I find this to be a very valuable workout but I have become increasingly cautious when it comes to advancing the pace. For years I did this workout on a weekly basis, but now I do it only on alternate weeks (alternating with 6K/5K/4K, which I have mentioned previously).
9) Again, this L3I workout is in addition to my Continuous Level 3. As with the 4 x 10’ (L4) workout, many people look at this and say “Ooh, that looks like fun, I’ll do that instead of the Continuous workout!” The WP already has L1 & L2 for intervals and intensity. Make sure to TCB first with plenty of continuous L3 & L4 training before adding another interval session.

Enjoy!

Mike Caviston
mpukita
Mike:

You are a stealth comedian ... first you say they're the workouts from "H3LL", and then you ask us to "enjoy"!

biggrin.gif

Thanks for the clarification ... Mark
mpukita
CONFESSIONS continued ...

L4 for 60'.

Was off by 15 meters this workout.

Last three L4 sixty minute workouts have been off by 15, 27 & 52 meters (latest to oldest workouts), so it appears I'm getting better at hitting the stroke rates and paces, but still not world class!

unsure.gif

-- Mark
mpukita
Friends:

I have not rotated in the pyramid interval workouts for Levels 1 & 2 (yet). I want to do this over the next week or two. I do not know at what pace to do these.

Do you have any recommendations?

Are all pieces in the pyramid done at the same pace?

Do you have the experience to know what your current pace for these is vs. your current 8x500, 4x1000, 4x2000 paces?

I would very much appreciate your comments.

Thanks, and regards ... Mark
mpukita
CONFESSIONS continued ...

PLAN: LEVEL 3 --> 12K continuous row at target pace (2:09 for me, I'm a slow poke).

ACTUAL: Just over 9,500M @ below target pace, and then had a spell of EDD (Erg Deficit Disorder). Lower back was tight, but that was only an excuse for almost going crazy with sheer boredom (for some reason) and having to get off the erg. Stopped and stretched on ball (4 to 5 minutes), got back on, and did another 2,500M at target pace -1 (2:08).

COMMENTARY: These paces are just a second (or less) slower than my 10K best pace (2:07.8), so it appears the Plan is working ... I just need to find a way to focus and get 12K+ continuous, constant pace, pieces DONE. I can do L4 - 60' workouts without a problem, but the continuous pieces at constant pace are mental torture for me at this time.

Suggestions?
kjgress
QUOTE(mpukita @ Nov 14 2005, 04:07 PM)
CONFESSIONS continued ...

the continuous pieces at constant pace are mental torture for me at this time.

Suggestions?
*



Look back through the literature (can't recall exactly where) Mike makes some comments and suggestions about breaking up long continuous sequences pace-wise to get some mental exercise in.
John Rupp
QUOTE(kjgress @ Nov 14 2005, 01:10 PM)
Look back through the literature (can't recall exactly where)
*


Either can anyone else! biggrin.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
mpukita
QUOTE(kjgress @ Nov 14 2005, 05:10 PM)
QUOTE(mpukita @ Nov 14 2005, 04:07 PM)
CONFESSIONS continued ...

the continuous pieces at constant pace are mental torture for me at this time.

Suggestions?
*



Look back through the literature (can't recall exactly where) Mike makes some comments and suggestions about breaking up long continuous sequences pace-wise to get some mental exercise in.
*



Thanks! I think I found it:

http://concept2.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2692&view=findpost&p=38612

This makes sense. I need to try this next continuous L3 workout to see if I can just get through a continuous 12K once ... I know if I do it, it will be easier the next time, and after. It's a mental block for me as the pace was a workout, but nowhere near "put the handle down" from a work standpoint.
H_2O
QUOTE(Mike Caviston @ Oct 21 2005, 05:22 PM)

The idea that there are “free” strokes anywhere in a 2K is a common misconception among the rowing community. 

QUOTE
How do you start a race?


With a quick series of firm but not outrageously fast strokes. The initial stroke is somewhere in the 2:00-2:04 range (for a 2K pace in the ballpark of 1:36). I try to reach my planned initial pace (i.e., roughly 2K + 1) by the fourth stroke, and then no faster. I practice this every time I do a race-pace interval (Level 1 or Level 2) when training.

Mike Caviston



I should have read this reply before I injured myself starting faster and faster.
I tore or pulled a muscle (distinct sharp pain) on my left groin, back and butt (!!!).
It cost me three weeks of quality rowing.

Now I am more cautious and start with 2:05 on the first stroke (rather than 1:50)
and then take 4 quick short strokes without much power. This gets me down to about 1:32.
Then I coast to projected race pace rather quickly.

I would never have thought that a fast rower starts with a 2:00 - 2:04 stroke, that was a revelation.

To return to the pacing issue:

How do you feel during a race, ie. when does the pressure really set in?
In my case there is almost no period where I am comfortable. I become uncomfortable
at 200m and under real pressure after about 400m. From then on it's simply grueling
and the objective is to keep it at constant level of discomfort. That means the pace drifts up slowly and reaches a low at about 1250m. Then I can usually pick up the pace little by little.

Reading your suggestion of rowing at target +1 for 800, then at target for the next 600, then target -1 for 400, then target -2 for 200 implies an incredible control in a fairly desperate situation. Are we to understand that you are not under much pressure during the first 800m?

In my case subjectively its does not feel easier to row at target +1 than at target since I am desperate at both paces so the inclination is to go at the faster pace to have some reserve in case of a breakdown.

I'll have to try your suggestion and see if it helps.
kjgress
[quote=H_2O,Nov 14 2005, 07:04 PM]
[quote=Mike Caviston,Oct 21 2005, 05:22 PM]

To return to the pacing issue:

How do you feel during a race, ie. when does the pressure really set in? Reading your suggestion of rowing at target +1 for 800, then at target for the next 600, then target -1 for 400, then target -2 for 200 implies an incredible control in a fairly desperate situation.


*

[/quote]

I have almost no racing experience, but I have this to offer: When you look at how Mike trains in his intervals, it makes sense. His intense training is all split this way; he does his 1K and 500 m intervals with the GP +1 (or +2, depending), GP, Gp-1, GP-2, etc strategy. Since he trains with this level of control it gives him a handle mentally on the 2K race. smile.gif
mpukita
QUOTE(mpukita @ Nov 13 2005, 05:09 PM)
Friends:

I have not rotated in the pyramid interval workouts for Levels 1 & 2 (yet).  I want to do this over the next week or two.  I do not know at what pace to do these. 

Do you have any recommendations? 

Are all pieces in the pyramid done at the same pace? 

Do you have the experience to know what your current pace for these is vs. your current 8x500, 4x1000, 4x2000 paces?

I would very much appreciate your comments.

Thanks, and regards ... Mark
*



One man's answer to my question, from Mike's "archives":

http://concept2.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2692&view=findpost&p=37886

Why couldn't I find this last night?
mpukita
CONFESSIONS continued ...

L4 - Target meters 12,916 -- Actual 12,985 -- OVER: 69 meters (at 12.0 DPS average that's 5.75 strokes too much, right?).

THOUGHTS:

This is the first time I've done an L4 and was over distance. Since I can't seem to get RowPro set up properly to record 2' pieces, the SPM I see is only the average for the entire 60 minutes, so hard to tell where the problem is. I have to get this figured out (RowPro). But, I was determined to make up for slow pulls with fast pulls, and just overcorrected. But, hopefully I'll zero in on rate and pace soon.

Also, this is like the 4th or 5th 60' L4 piece I've done without any thought of stopping before 60' was up. Of course, I stop all the time with the 12K L3 continuous pieces. Thus, I conclude that the mental gymnastics require to track and change pace and rate in the L4 workouts take my mind off the workout. I'm going to incorporate some of this in the L3s I do going forward, as Mike and others have suggested, and see if I can make the L3s more bearable.

If I can do almost 13K meters L4 non-stop, I should be able to do 12K meters non-stop, even though the pace is faster. It's gotta be mental only.
bmoore
Mark,

When I set up RowPro for L4 workouts, I use 10' splits. (There are more than just 2' segments in L4 workouts, so I don't even try for 2' detail, plus you only can do 30 splits on RowPro). Take the total meters and divide by the Avg DPA to get the total number of strokes per set.

I try to understroke each segment and go longer than the distance. This becomes a challenge after 40 minutes for me, but has been getting better.

Keep at it. You have to do these workouts a number of times to even be able to ask the right questions sometimes. You're on the right path.

Bill

mpukita
QUOTE(bmoore @ Nov 15 2005, 06:15 PM)
Mark,

When I set up RowPro for L4 workouts, I use 10' splits.  (There are more than just 2' segments in L4 workouts, so I don't even try for 2' detail, plus you only can do 30 splits on RowPro).  Take the total meters and divide by the Avg DPA to get the total number of strokes per set.

I try to understroke each segment and go longer than the distance.  This becomes a challenge after 40 minutes for me, but has been getting better.

Keep at it.  You have to do these workouts a number of times to even be able to ask the right questions sometimes.  You're on the right path.

Bill
*



Bill:

Maybe I'll try the 10' splits. I could not get RowPro to break the 60' piece down into 2' splits (which I would be "chuffed" about, as our UK friends would say). It was sweet to do this on a 40' piece, because one could see the strokes and distance by every 2 minute sector of the workout. Better 6 splits to analyze than only 1 though ...

How's the new baby, and Mom?

Exciting stuff.

My baby is now 15.5 (we went to the DMV today to get the manual she needs to study to get her "temps" on 12/1). We LOVE babies in our house. Would have had more if possible, but my wife is 5 years older than me and we got a late start. Doctor advised against any more after "15.5" as I like to call her these days (as the driving thing is top of mind for her (and for us) and 15.5 is the magic age to get licensed in Ohio). We were just talking about how fun it is to have a new baby in the house ... tiring, but great fun and family connection.

Regards -- Mark
seat5
I did my first Level 1 work out today.
My reference pace is supposed to be 1:57. I've been using 1:55 for Levels 3 & 4, but tonight is supposed to be telling me what reference pace to use.

It was 8 x 500 with 2:42 rest (my recovery rate is supposed to be 2:42, so I just used that for the rest time). I did active rest, but that made me worry a bit. Are you supposed to stop and make sure the fly wheel is stopped before each interval in Level 1? Anyway, I didn't, so there's that impact to consider. Each new interval started with either really silly slow paces showing up, like 2:08, or even sillier fast ones, like 1:47.

It wasn't as consistent as it should be, since this is my first attempt at this workout and I wasn't sure what I could do at all:
1:56.2 28 spm
1:53.4 28 spm (this one showed 1:47 at the start, so I don't think this is right)
1:56.6 27 spm
1:56.6 26 spm
1:54.7 26 spm
1:54.7 26 spm
1:54.1 26 spm
1:53.1 27 spm

The average is 1:52.5 and 26.5ish spm. Any idea what I should use as a reference pace? Should I just repeat this workout next week, trying to be more consistent, and then decide?

Thanks to anyone who has the time to think about this, and also, about the stopped flywheel deal.
joanvb
QUOTE(seat5 @ Nov 15 2005, 09:59 PM)

The average is 1:52.5 and 26.5ish spm.  Any idea what I should use as a reference pace?  Should I just repeat this workout next week, trying to be more consistent, and then decide?

Thanks to anyone who has the time to think about this, and also, about the stopped flywheel deal.


Carla,

I've copied below what Mike wrote on page 6 of this thread. It might answer your questions...at least about the flywheel.

Joan VB


"For a workout like 8 x 500m, a simple method (as described in the original WP document) is to take the average pace from the previous time you completed the workout, and begin the new workout at that pace, bringing it down for the final 2-3 intervals to finish with a new, lower average. Then repeat the format next time you do the same workout. This works fairly well, especially earlier in the season when you’re not exactly sure how hard to push, and you will probably make large gains initially. But I caution against going too hard too often, and someone who pushes too hard too soon in the season will probably plateau early. After the first couple times with this workout in a given season, I settle into choosing a goal pace that is on average 1 tenth of a sec faster per 500m for every week since I last did the workout. If I finish a little ahead of my goal, I’ll readjust my target for next time. So, last week my target for 8 x 500m was 1:33.0; my actual average pace ended up 1:32.8; in two more weeks, when I do the workout again, my target will be 1:32.5. When I do this workout, I take about 3 ½ minutes recovery (most of it active) between pieces. I don’t set a recovery time on the monitor, but keep track manually. I start each interval from a dead stop, with the flywheel nearly motionless, and use the opportunity to practice racing starts. Not to start as fast as I can, but to see how quickly/smoothly I can settle into a desired pace. I also set the 500m with 250m sub-intervals to see if I pace the piece correctly; my goal being to negative- or even-split (not positive-split)..."
bmoore
QUOTE(seat5 @ Nov 15 2005, 10:59 PM)
I did my first Level 1 work out today.
My reference pace is supposed to be 1:57.  I've been using 1:55 for Levels 3 & 4, but tonight is supposed to be telling me what reference pace to use.

It was 8 x 500 with 2:42 rest (my recovery rate is supposed to be 2:42, so I just used that for the rest time).  I did active rest, but that made me worry a bit.  Are you supposed to stop and make sure the fly wheel is stopped before each interval in Level 1? Anyway, I didn't, so there's that impact to consider.  Each new interval started with either really silly slow paces showing up, like 2:08, or even sillier fast ones, like 1:47.

It wasn't as consistent as it should be, since this is my first attempt at this workout and I wasn't sure what I could do at all:
1:56.2 28 spm
1:53.4 28 spm (this one showed 1:47 at the start, so I don't think this is right)
1:56.6 27 spm
1:56.6 26 spm
1:54.7 26 spm
1:54.7 26 spm
1:54.1 26 spm
1:53.1 27 spm

The average is 1:52.5 and 26.5ish spm.  Any idea what I should use as a reference pace?  Should I just repeat this workout next week, trying to be more consistent, and then decide?

Thanks to anyone who has the time to think about this, and also, about the stopped flywheel deal.
*



Carla,

For this workout, there's not enough rest for the flywheel to stop. Regardless, for this workout, you should just be consistent, and start lowering your average pace like Joan mentioned. I'd try to get consistent next time.

I'm not sure how you got an average 1:52.5 when none of your splits were below this. Can you clarify or double check the splits on this please.

If you're referring to the L4 reference pace, then I'd try to set it with a 4x1k instead of the 8x500. There's enough of an difference in endurance to make the 4x1k a better indicator of 2k times, and thus your L4 reference pace.

If you truly did 1:52.5 average pace, then I'd use a 1:55 for your L4 ref pace as you had been doing. (I'm assuming you can do a 1:52 8x500 which loosly translates into a 1:55 2k potential or a 1:56 4x1k potential. The correlation between these times is based on the feedback I've personally done with these and the feedback from other users on the forum).

Let us know how the other workouts go.

Regards,
John Rupp
QUOTE(bmoore @ Nov 15 2005, 08:08 PM)
I'm not sure how you got an average 1:52.5 when none of your splits were below this.
*


Bill,

This is part of the magic of the Wolverine Plan. biggrin.gif
seat5
Hi Bill,
I'm mathematically challenged! You're right, that's got to be a wrong average. I added up all the seconds (i.e. 56.2, etc) and divided by 60 to get minutes and then added all the leftover minutes (the ones). Then I used the pace calculator--I put in the total minutes and set the distance at 4000m.

I think what happened is when I divided by 60 to get the minutes, it came out with a decimal and maybe I got confused and thought the decimal was seconds.

Saw a great T shirt the other day. It said "Help! I'm so confused!...wait a minute. Maybe I'm not"

The actual average is 1:54.9.

Joan,
Thanks for that snippet. I kept looking through everything I had and couldn't find the bit about the flywheel. Then I llooked at the clock and realized if I kept thrashing around looking for it I'd mess up being able to fit the workout in between other obligations and end up rowing really late at night or skipping it. I'll go with 3 minutes active rest and then give it 30 seconds to pretty much stop. That will eliminate the wierd readings at the beginning of each peice, too, I guess.
John Rupp
The flywheel takes 3 minutes to stop if you dont row at all in between, and when you are rowing slowly that keeps the flywheel moving on, so it is not going to be stopped when you are rowing slowly in between unless you do nothing at all for 3 minutes. It wont be stopped rowing even 10 minutes in between if you are having an active rest though but just for just a workout that doesn't make much difference if it is still moving a little bit, unless you are doing a timed 500m piece and then it needs to be stopped.

For an average I usually take the lowest number and then count from there. We did this in track all the time so I'm used to it. For example yours are close to 1:54 but looks like higher than that so we can count from there in tenths of a second.

1:56.2 ... + 22
1:53.4 .... - 06 = 16
1:56.6 ... + 26 = 42
1:56.6 ... + 26 = 68
1:54.7 ... + 07 = 75
1:54.7 ... + 07 = 82
1:54.1 ... + 01 = 83
1:53.1 .... - 09 = 74

74 / 8 = 9.25 tenths

1:54 + .925 = 1:54.93 or however you want to round it.


mpukita
QUOTE(seat5 @ Nov 16 2005, 01:57 AM)
Hi Bill,
I'm mathematically challenged!  You're right, that's got to be a wrong average.  I added up all the seconds (i.e. 56.2, etc) and divided by 60 to get minutes and then added all the leftover minutes (the ones). Then I used the pace calculator--I put in the total minutes and set the distance at 4000m. 

I think what happened is when I divided by 60 to get the minutes, it came out with a decimal and maybe I got confused and thought the decimal was seconds.

Saw a great T shirt the other day.  It said "Help! I'm so confused!...wait a minute. Maybe I'm not"

The actual average is  1:54.9.

Joan,
Thanks for that snippet.  I kept looking through everything I had and couldn't find the bit about the flywheel. Then I llooked at the clock and realized if I kept thrashing around looking for it I'd mess up being able to fit the workout in between other obligations and end up rowing really late at night or skipping it.  I'll go with 3 minutes active rest and then give it 30 seconds to pretty much stop.  That will eliminate the wierd readings at the beginning of each peice, too, I guess.
*



Awesome interval calulator someone posted a while back (thanks, whoever you were!). You can put in full interval times (i.e. as in format 1:51.2), and it does the math automatically based on number of entries. Works for splits and whole pieces:

http://www.machars.net/spi.php


seat5
QUOTE(John Rupp @ Nov 16 2005, 06:24 AM)
The flywheel takes 3 minutes to stop if you dont row at all in between, and when you are rowing slowly that keeps the flywheel moving on, so it is not going to be stopped when you are rowing slowly in between unless you do nothing at all for 3 minutes.  It wont be stopped rowing even 10 minutes in between if you are having an active rest though but just for just a workout that doesn't make much difference if it is still moving a little bit, unless you are doing a timed 500m piece and then it needs to be stopped. 

For an average I usually take the lowest number and then count from there.  We did this in track all the time so I'm used to it.  For example yours are close to 1:54 but looks like higher than that so we can count from there in tenths of a second.

1:56.2 ... + 22
1:53.4 .... - 06 = 16
1:56.6 ... + 26 = 42
1:56.6 ... + 26 = 68
1:54.7 ... + 07 = 75
1:54.7 ... + 07 = 82
1:54.1 ... + 01 = 83
1:53.1 .... - 09 = 74

74 / 8 = 9.25 tenths

1:54 + .925 = 1:54.93 or however you want to round it.
*



That is a MUCH better way than the way I did it! thanks.
seat5
QUOTE
Awesome interval calulator someone posted a while back (thanks, whoever you were!). You can put in full interval times (i.e. as in format 1:51.2), and it does the math automatically based on number of entries. Works for splits and whole pieces:


And this is even better! I bookmarked it.
kjgress
QUOTE(seat5 @ Nov 15 2005, 09:59 PM)
.  Each new interval started with either really silly slow paces showing up, like 2:08, or even sillier fast ones, like 1:47.

*



Carla: Do you have any of the beta tests loaded on your erg computer? If you set the workout up as an interval series on the regular PM3 you can get the fluctuating values you are describing at the beginning of the pieces. The beta versions don't seem to be as plagued by this.
seat5
QUOTE(kjgress @ Nov 17 2005, 05:38 AM)
QUOTE(seat5 @ Nov 15 2005, 09:59 PM)
.  Each new interval started with either really silly slow paces showing up, like 2:08, or even sillier fast ones, like 1:47.

*



Carla: Do you have any of the beta tests loaded on your erg computer? If you set the workout up as an interval series on the regular PM3 you can get the fluctuating values you are describing at the beginning of the pieces. The beta versions don't seem to be as plagued by this.
*


Alas, I am using the PM2. It beats the heck out of the PM1, which I had last year, but I'm sure I'd like the PM3 better. On the PM2, I can set it for intervals of 2 minutes, but I can't set a rest time of less than 10 seconds. This is what I've been doing, and in that 10 seconds I was resetting my metrenome.

Yesterday I really annoyed myself by trying a different way. I decided to try not using a metrenome and see if I could just stick to the right rate without it, and set the PM2 for 10' intervals.

It was really awful. First of all, I had the dickens of a time sticking to the right rate. It was awfully easy to become confused, because if I was too high by one stroke for a few strokes, a few times I got mixed up about which 2' I was in and corrected in the wrong direction (it was an alternating 16/18 sequence, so if I was on 17 by accident, sometimes I couldn't remember if I was trying to be on 16 or on 18.) I had music on and kept trying to go to the beat. (Before I had music on, but with the metrenome had no trouble at all being on the right rate.)

I was doing 176/188/176/188/176/188, and after each 10' interval would reset for another 10'. Once I started doing 188 again by accident. And on the first 176, which should have been 16/18/20/18/16, I forgot the 20 and just did 16. I ended up 2 strokes high on the first 2 minutes, 4 strokes low on the 3rd 2 minutes, and 2 strokes low on the 4th 2 minutes, but 37 meters higher than the goal for the 10 minutes.

Next time I think I'll do the 10' intervals, but use a metrenome and just change it as quickly as I can, so I won't have to have the stupid 10 seconds rest time. I really am starting to want Ergmonitor because it would be so cool to not have to reset the metrenome myself so there would be no interruptions. And even better not to have a limitation of only 20 splits remembered. I just have to figure out how I'm going to set up a computer near the erg.
mpukita
CONFESSIONS continued ...

LEVEL 1 today.

4 x 1,000

Mike had mentioned not to try to improve too fast, even early on in using the Plan, because his experience showed that most people who did this plateaued quickly (I can only suppose that this has something to do with physiological conditioning science of which I am totally ignorant).

Prior, my bext 4 x 1,000 had been done at an average pace of 1:53.8 when I had a target of 1:54.0 or better (Nov. 2).

I was going to shoot for 1:51:0 or lower, but caught myself and reset the average target for 1:53.0 or better, shooting for:

1:53.0
1:52.8
1:52.6
1:52.4

Average: 1:52.7

Boy, was I glad I did!

I did:

1:52.9/31
1:52.6/32
1:52.5/34 (banging slides)
1:52.0/33

Average: 1:52.5

All with 1,000M active recovery at 2:30 pace or better (5 minutes or less rest).

While a very good workout, going any faster would have been really, really pushing it for me, so I'm beginning to finally get to what I refer to as my "current training limit". I expect I'll be religious about following Mike's advice on lowering targets for these workouts by only several tenths of a second pace, on average, for each week between these similar intervals.

Carla, this is the second time I've done this specific workout, and I'm just getting to the point where I feel like, "OK, this is a good workout and the paces make sense." My sense is that after a month or so on the Plan, we'll both feel good about the pacing, rates, etc. Until then, I share your pain in feeling somewhat uncoordinated and clumsy (especially on L4s!).

-- Mark
bmoore
Carla,

Try doing 60' with 6 splits. You'll have to keep track of the rate changes for each progression, but I'm getting to the point of memorizing them. (I thought Mike was crazy when he said this, but after 2 workouts, I'm seeing that it can be done. Heck, each time I have 60 minutes of staring at this stuff, so eventually it does sink in). No rest between these splits. This is supposed to be endurance training, not 30 sets of 2'.

I'd really recommend getting rid of the metronome, especially if you can't hit the paces without it. It's a good tool, but it can become a crutch. I found it took some time, but now the rates are easy to hit in 2-3 strokes.

I'm using RowPro and get all of the feedback I need on the rates, distance, pace, and number of strokes for each set. (Number of strokes is distance divided by Average distance per stroke).

Try using 10' splits and no metronone for 2 weeks or 6 L4 workouts. I'm pretty sure you'll get the hang of it in that amount of time. Rowing by feel and using the feedback from your PM to fine tune your stroke just seems more natural.
kjgress
QUOTE(seat5 @ Nov 17 2005, 08:55 AM)
  On the PM2, I can set it for intervals of 2 minutes

I was doing  176/188/176/188/176/188, and after each 10' interval would reset for another 10'. Once I started doing 188 again by accident.  And on the first 176, which should have been 16/18/20/18/16, I forgot the 20 and just did 16.  I ended up 2 strokes high on the first 2 minutes, 4 strokes low on the 3rd 2 minutes, and 2 strokes low on the 4th 2 minutes, but 37 meters higher than the goal for the 10 minutes. 

*



Carla: Setting up the workout with intervals is where you will get the weird numbers at the beginning. Try and do the workout as a continuous 60' piece. If the Pm2 will let you change the split length then make the split length 2 minutes. If it won't you will have to work around the split length. Most recently I have gone to this format and I get 30 2 minute splits for the workout (I don't know how long I'll do it like this; it's a lot of splits to go through and it does give a very accurate picture but it's not something that needs to be done every workout once you get the hang of it).

I agree that you need to stop with the metronome; you will eventually get the pace by yourself. It might help to take a small piece of paper with the workout written on it and tape it to the computer. For example just write down 176/188/176/188/176/188. If you need to also write 176: 16/18/20/18/16 and 188:18/20/18/20/18. You will probably remember the required pace for each spm, but if not, jot that down also. To keep yourself occupied, count the strokes for each 10 minutes and try to keep each 30 seconds on rate.

For example the first 10 minute piece is 176. After 30 sec you should have counted 8 strokes, after a minute, 16. After 1:30 you should be at 25 and after 2 minutes 34. After 10 minutes you should be at 176. With the next stroke begin again at 1 and count up through the next sequence. Another method is to count each 2 minute set and reset the count after 2 minutes. Sometimes this method makes the time go faster. It's amazing how fast a 60 minute set can go by when you are counting every 30 seconds. After a couple of workouts you will begin to get very close to the rate.
seat5
PM2 only remembers 20 splits. So to get an accurate picture of what I'm doing, at the very least I have to do a 40' and a 20'.

Believe it or not, I had all that written down on a white board; the sequence (176 or whatever) and the 2's (16/18/etc) but somehow got on the wrong line or at the wrong place in the sequence...it was like sight reading music and accidentally skipping a line or a measure. That was just a particularly stupid day for me, I think, because on other L4 days I didn't mess up that way. It was also my first day doing any 176's that have the 20 in the middle and I missed it more than once, thinking I was just alternating 16 and 18.

I'm doing the same L4 tonight, but I won't have music on, which makes me want to go to that beat, and I'll try again without the metrenome. I think the best I can do is 40' + 20'; and if I dont take a few seconds to write down the results in between them I won't really know how I did. Or would 30' + 30' be better?

thanks, Bill, Mark, & KJ. I'm sure I'll look back on all this aggravation a few weeks from now and be amazed at how difficult it seemed just to follow the workout properly!

L3 last night, 10K at 2:06.5, 23.5 spm--didn't have time for a whole 12K plus warm up and cool down.
arakawa
QUOTE(seat5 @ Nov 18 2005, 08:34 AM)
PM2 only remembers 20 splits.  So to get an accurate picture of what I'm doing, at the very least I have to do a 40' and a 20'.

[...]

I'm doing the same L4 tonight, but I won't have music on, which makes me want to go to that beat, and I'll try again without the metrenome.  I think the best I can do is 40' + 20'; and if I dont take a few seconds to write down the results in between them I won't really know how I did.  Or would 30' + 30' be better?
*

When I did my L4 / 60', I set the monitor for 5' splits. No, I don't get the really accurate stroke counts that I do with 2' splits. However, I get some accuracy without stopping my 60' workout.

In his Wolverine Plan document, Mike Caviston had the following to say:
QUOTE
Workouts are designed to be continuous, but 70’ can be a long time and sometimes a workout will be interrupted. [...] From a physiological standpoint, a brief interruption will not lessen the benefits of the workout. [...] On the ergometer, it is strongly urged you row each piece continuously unless absolutely unavoidable (nature does sometimes call at an inopportune moment). If your workout should need to be interrupted, simply record the meters for each of the sequences already completed, take care of business, and then reset your monitor for the time remaining. Again, this is for emergencies only.

Mike also had some comments about setting the monitor for subintervals.
arakawa
QUOTE(Mike Caviston @ Nov 11 2005, 11:38 PM)
QUOTE(arakawa @ Nov 11 2005, 11:27 PM)
Day 4: Level 4 / 4x10' @ L4 -4 pace

Am I understanding you correctly? Your workout was 4 x 10’, and each 10’ was the same flat rate for the entire duration, and the pace you chose was your 2K-based Ref Pace minus four?? What on earth does this have to do with Level 4 or the Wolverine Plan? I don’t see how I could have stated more clearly or directly that these modifications are exactly what NOT to do if you want to follow the Wolverine Plan. You can do whatever workouts you want; it’s none of my business. But PLEASE don’t refer to them as “Wolverine Plan” workouts!
*

I've read about how people claim to be following the WP, but are not doing a workout that has anything to do with the WP, and thus diluting (or even polluting or perverting) its guidance. I understand your protectiveness about other people attaching WP to their workout descriptions. When someone says they're doing a WP workout, they're saying "Mike Caviston told me to do it this way". If they're not actually following the WP, then you need stand up and tell people that you never said that, which is exactly what you did here.

Anyway, I did realize that what I claimed was a WP Level 4 workout was in fact not a WP workout at all. In the post you quoted above, I went on to say:
QUOTE(arakawa @ Nov 11 2005, 10:27 PM)
I was trying to figure out my next 4x10' Level 4 workout, and came across Mike Caviston's post on Creating Level 4 Workouts. I seemed to have been confused from the start about how to set up 4x10' workouts in the first place. Mike says

  • when selecting the stroke rates for a 4x10', the rule of thumb is to add 2 SPM to my base continuous rate (e.g. from 18.6 SPM to 20.6 SPM), and select four 10' intervals that give me that higher stroke rate.
  • the recovery period is one-third (not one-fourth) the work period, so the recovery period for a 4x10' is 3:20 (not 2:30).
I'll have to look through my notes to find out how I came to my erroneous conclusions about what a 4x10' and its corresponding recovery periods are supposed to be.

In any case, my next 4x10' Level 4 workout will be a week from yesterday. I'll pick out four 10' pieces so that the average stroke rate is 19.8 (my 40' and 60' continuous are both 17.8 SPM this week).
*

So, I apologize if the beginning of my post suggested that what I was doing was endorsed by you and your plan, when it was not. However, I do believe I've cleared this misunderstanding by the end of the post and pointed to directly relevant posts from you about how you intended this workout to be.

I mention all this not just to clarify between you and me what may or may not be stamped with the WP/Mike Caviston imprimatur but for the benefit of other WP newbies who may be looking at my first few workouts as an example of how people are starting out with the plan.
Mike Caviston
Warming Up
As I have previously written, in my experience there are two things that come as close as anything to providing “free speed” when training or racing. These are proper pacing and warm-up . These have been confirmed for me by personal experience, by having worked with hundreds of athletes over the past 25 years, and having read an extensive amount of published scientific research on these topics. Yet amazingly many athletes are unwilling to consider alternate pacing or warm-up strategies as a means of enhancing performance. I have discussed pacing already on this thread. I have discussed warm-up many times in the past, but it is time to revisit the topic again.

The purpose of warming up is to prepare the body for the physical (and mental) demands of the task at hand. Some of the physiological effects of properly warming up include dilating blood vessels supplying the active muscles; increasing sympathetic neural drive to the heart so HR will be able to reach max values; beginning the sweating response to keep the body cool; beginning the process of activating the appropriate energy pathways; mobilizing adequate fuel sources (i.e., breakdown and release of fatty acids for longer sessions); and allowing the muscles & joints to reach the full Range Of Motion required during the session. Many people behave as if all of this can be accomplished with a few minutes of low-moderate intensity preparation prior to their training session (or race!) In fact, a proper warm-up needs to be longer and more intense than many people apparently realize.

Many people fear an intense/extended warm-up will leave them too exhausted to perform well during a workout or race. Ironically, failing to warm up long enough with sufficient intensity will limit performance! I find that during a Level 1 or Level 2 interval workout, the first interval is generally the hardest and slowest (even after what I consider a complete warm-up). The next interval feels significantly easier, and throughout the workout, even as fatigue progressively becomes more of a limiting factor, the later intervals are more relaxed. Clearly, the body requires time to become prepared and acclimated for hard work. I have heard or read many people recount experiences where they performed unexpectedly well after a tough initial work period (e.g., doing better on the second 2K at a venue race even though the first 2K was supposed to be “all-out”.) An anecdote I have related before illustrates the point. Several years ago while coaching at Michigan in the pre-erg era, a staple workout was to have the team run a dozen times up (and down) a dozen flights of stairs in the tallest building on campus. Cumulative time for all 12 trips up & down would typically be in the 30-35’ range. The standard warm-up I required was to jog to the top & back at least twice before beginning the actual workout on the clock. Some athletes, as a penalty for various infractions during the previous week (late to practice, etc.) would also have to do two fast “penalty flights” within a specific time limit (or do more penalties), and within a couple minutes start the actual workout. So that meant 2 jog + 2 penalty + 12 workout flights. It quickly became apparent that not only were the athletes given the penalty flights NOT too tired to perform well – they took huge chunks off their best overall times; they performed MUCH better relative to past performances than their non-penalized teammates.

With that in mind, for the past several years I have repeated a little experiment with many different squads of rowers (similar to the “pacing” experiment I described in a previous post). Part of the season would go by and athletes would be given some general guidelines for warming up but would have quite a bit of flexibility in determining their own formats and intensities. Then at some point before a tough workout (e.g., 4 x 1K) I would require a more specific and demanding warm-up – something that when they saw it written on the white board would cause their jaws to drop a little and you could tell they were thinking something like, “I’m going to do THAT warm-up and THEN do 4 x 1K? I don’t THINK so!” [I think that’s the hallmark of a good warm-up: it should be intense enough that outsiders will mistake it for the actual workout.] So the athletes would be afraid they wouldn’t be able to complete the workout. But they always did, and in almost every case they did it significantly faster than previously and with less perceived effort. (Inexplicably, when the specifically intense guidelines for warm-up were removed, most athletes reverted back to an easier but less successful format. Someone could devote an entire thread to the topic of athletes’ psychology and why they tend to resist things that have proven to be effective.)

So, warm-ups need to be longer & more intense than performed by many people. I don’t have a blanket formula (I doubt if there is one), but I can offer examples of warm-ups I use for my own training. Like all aspects of training, I prefer quite a bit of structure with my warm-ups. I follow specific formats for specific workouts. The formats aren’t quite as strict as for Levels 1-4, and a slight amount of variation may occur from one day to the next, but by-and-large I follow pretty scripted scenarios. I do so for a few reasons. In the first place, following a routine is a good way to encourage consistency. People who get inconsistent results for different types of workouts might benefit from re-examining their preparations before the workout. One of the guiding principles of the Wolverine Plan is to slowly, gradually, and systematically increase the overall training load week by week. What many fail to realize is that warm-up is part of the training load. I perform a set routine every week (i.e., 1 L1, 1 L2, 2 L3, and 6 L4 workouts every week). The intensity and duration of each workout is controlled to keep an overall balance and pace for the entire week’s training. The warm-ups are also part of the training load and I keep the duration and intensity of the warm-ups controlled as well. Essentially, warm-ups can be thought of as “Level 5” in the WP framework, and account for over 25K of my training meters every week. These are not “junk” meters, but quality meters with a specific training effect essential to the overall process.

Here is a basic description of my warm-ups:
I begin with about 15 firm strokes to check my drag factor; this is sort of a “pre-warm-up” warm-up. For the actual warm-up, I set the monitor for Just Row (for all workouts, I pre-set a time or distance and count down, so this is a chance for a little variety in how I look at the monitor). The warm-ups themselves have evolved after a period of trial-and-error and attempting many different things. The current formats have their logic but some aspects are there “just because” they have been working for me. So I’m not presenting these as fixed ideals , but as illustrations that demonstrate some of the key factors in warming up.
My standard warm-up distance for Level 4 workouts is 2000m.
1st 200m (about 20 strokes) @ 26-27spm; pace 70% of 2K Watts (a solid Level 3 pace).
From 200-850m, @14-16spm; minimal pace is the Recovery Pace defined for my 2K in the WP charts (37% of 2K Watts), but the actual Recovery Pace I use will often be faster by 2-4 sec/500m.
At 850m, I firm up so that my rate is 28-30spm and pace is 90% of 2K Watts (a fast Level 2 pace) and hold this for 12-15 strokes until I reach 1000m.
At 1000m, I drop back down to Recovery Pace and rate.
At 1450m, I firm up to 26-27spm and a pace 80% of 2K Watts (a slow Level 2 pace) and hold it for 12-15 strokes.
The final 400m or so is done at Recovery Pace and rate.
From one warm-up to the next, the exact number of firm strokes or the exact pace for each one might vary slightly, but at the end the average pace for the 2000m ends up being remarkably consistent (within a couple tenths of a sec per 500m), at 45% of 2K Watts.
When I finish the 2000m, I take a couple minutes to take care of such business as making sure my water bottle is full, my towel is handy, use the bathroom if necessary, maybe do a few brief stretches, etc. I partly do this to simulate the transition from the warm-up erg to race erg that occurs at venue races. To finish, I’ll take a few more strokes, some easy, some firm, for another 30-90 seconds (depending on how much I’ve cooled), then set the monitor and begin the actual workout.

My standard warm-up for Level 3 workouts is 2500m. The first 2000m is identical to the Level 4 warm-up. The final 500m is done at Recovery Pace except for an additional 10 strokes at 80% of 2K Watts (slow Level 2). The average pace for the whole warm-up is 45% of 2K Watts.
The standard warm-up for Level 2 is 4000m long. It begins with 100m (about 10 strokes) @ 26-27spm, 70% 2K Watts.
From 100m-1000m, 14-16spm and Recovery Pace.
From 1000m-2000m, 26-27spm and at least 80% of 2K Watts. NOTE: this is perceived as hard work, and takes a little mental toughness. For the desired physiological effect, it is important that the pace be maintained continuously (not in short bursts) for the entire distance.
From 2000m-2500m, settle to 18spm @ L4 16 pace (i.e., the pace usually prescribed for rowing at 16spm according to the WP charts).
At 2500m, shift down to 14-16spm @ Recovery Pace. At about 2800m, firm up to 28-30spm at 90% 2K Watts for 15-20 strokes, then drop back to Recovery Pace and rate at about 3000m. At about 3450m, firm up for 10-15 more strokes at 90% 2K Watts, then finish the remainder of the 4000m @ Recovery Pace.
The warm-up for Level 1 workouts is identical to that for Level 2, except the 90% 2K Watts becomes 105% 2K Watts (@32-33spm). The average pace for the L1-2 warm-ups works out to 51-2% of 2K Watts.

Warm-ups also serve a diagnostic purpose for me (i.e., Am I ready to perform?) Some days the first 20 strokes just seem a little harder than normal, and the desired pace doesn’t appear as quickly as it usually does. Or other portions might be more difficult than usual or it might take longer than usual to reach the half-way point. Things like this tell me that I’ll need to expend a little extra effort to get prepared, or take a little more time, or in a worst-case scenario, maybe adjust my goal for the workout a little.

In my training journal I record the times and distances for all workouts, and the distances for each warm-up. (I don’t record the paces for the warm-ups but as I have said, they are very consistent and I know for all intents and purposes what they are.) The percent of total training volume distributed among warm-ups and the various training bands is pretty consistent. Warm-up is about 15-17% of total weekly volume; Level 1 is 2-3%; Level 2 is 4-6%; Level 3 is 20-25%; and level 4 is 50-55%. For warm-up, I only record the standard allotted distances, ignoring any additional or supplemental warm-up meters. I also neglect to record my active recovery meters for interval sessions and my cool-down meters after workouts are completed. This means several thousand meters per week go unrecorded, but I find I get a more accurate and meaningful portrait of my training that way.

My standard race warm-up is 7500m. It begins with a 4000m block that is identical to the Level 1 warm-up. Then, after a 1-2 minute break, I set the monitor for 2000m. I break this 2K portion of the warm-up into 400m segments. The 1st 400m is 14-16spm/Recovery Pace; 2nd 400m is 18spm/L4 16 pace; middle 400m is 32-33spm/sub-2K pace; 4th 400m same as 2nd; 5th 400m same as 1st. Yes, the middle 400m is sub -2K pace, faster than I expect to go in the actual race. A mental component to this 2K portion is to review and visualize my race plan for the day (and to prove to myself that a monitor will indeed count down to zero from 2000m!) After another 1-2 minute break, I do a final 1500m at recovery Pace, with two 12-15 stroke bursts at near-2K pace. Ideally, I finish the warm-up 5-10 minutes before the scheduled start of the race, which leaves me enough time to leave the warm-up area, find a men’s room if necessary, report to the race area, and begin adjusting my race erg as soon as I’m allowed. Prior to the start of the race, I alternate light strokes with short bursts at firm pressure to maintain the proper muscle temperature. The analogy I use is to think of a kettle on the stove just getting ready to boil. I don’t want to start boiling before the race starts but I want the flame to be high enough so that when I see “ROW” on my monitor I begin boiling in the shortest time possible. Incidentally, it is important to know how long the entire warm-up routine will take. I go through the entire routine at least a couple times in the days leading up to the race, so I know exactly when to begin (relative to my race time) on race day. Once I begin the warm-up, I am also prepared to shorten or extend the process as necessary if I receive word the original schedule has changed. Often races fall behind schedule and you must handle a delay (e.g., Paris EIRC 2003), but I’ve also been at races where lost time is unexpectedly made up and a race begins sooner than originally anticipated (e.g., Amsterdam EIRC 2004).

To sum up my major point, warm-up is a crucial aspect of the training/racing process and needs to be attended with as much planning and scientific validation as other aspects of training. Most people will benefit significantly from longer and more intense warm-ups. This will probably take some mental conditioning as well. That is, it may take you a while to get your head around the idea that working harder before a race will make you faster, not slower. I suggest gradually adjusting your warm-up procedures under controlled conditions during training to see what formats are most physically and mentally beneficial.

One final matter related to warm-up for anyone who trains more than once per day. I have come across several published research articles describing the benefits of prior exercise on subsequent workouts. This refers to the lingering warm-up effects of a first session on a second session performed a few hours later. For example, vasodilators remain active, allowing a quicker more efficient distribution of blood flow to active muscles, and metabolic enzymes are in a more ready state. With proper nutrition between workouts, there is more efficient and effective glycogen synthesis and storage in the fibers utilized during the first session, leaving them favorably primed for the second session. I have long known from personal experience that when I add a second session to my daily routine I appear to become more rather than less energetic. It’s good to see my experiences validated under experimental circumstances.

Speaking of second workouts, it is that time once again…

Mike Caviston
freestyle
Mike
I love your posts and have learned so much from you. I am glad you mentioned multiple workouts in your warm up post. Suppose that Crash B was set up as a tournament, with the top "sweet" 16 seeded rowers (same age and weight categories) set up in brackets. To make the final, you would race 3 times, 16-quaterfinal-semifinal-final. If the tournament was seeded properly, your races would become increasingly competitive. You might want to go "all out" on every race, indeed, you might have too if these were your fellow top 15 competitors. However, you might not have to get a pb to win your first 1 or 2 races. The races would be about 1 hour apart, sometimes longer, sometimes sooner. Your final race would be at night, a full 2 or 3 hours after your semifinal win. How would you warm up for these races? How involved would your warm up be if you had just raced a strenous 2k 1 hour before?
I coach youth wrestling, and one of the reasons I love the erg for my boys and myself is a 2k race is around 7 minutes plus (for most of us!) and a wrestling match is 6 minutes in High School and 7 minutes in college. Both sports are grueling but rewarding! I started to give our kids a better warm up before tournaments last year---with some grumbling I might add---but in between matches they goof around, play video games etc. Before a match comes up, we have them do some pushups, situps, and stance, motion. But it is brief, and in no way do they get their heart rate up or begin sweating. What do you think? Can you conceive of the mental energy and toughness to do 4 competive 2k's in one day? How would you approach it? After 3 hard trials, could you get yourself up to do another lengthy warmup before your final race?
tobybradshaw
Background: Ergs were exotic equipment when I rowed as a high school lightweight in northern VA 1971-1975 -- the only one I ever saw was at a race we had at the Naval Academy. I missed out on the whole Concept 2 development and haven't done any serious aerobic exercise since some bike racing about 20 years ago. Luckily my daughter (age 14) started rowing for Lake Washington Rowing Club here in Seattle, so it didn't take me too long to buy a Model D for us to use at home. I am sorry that it took me so long!

In looking around for a way to get started on the erg (without overdoing it -- I'm 48 and don't self-repair as fast as I used to!) I came across this WP discussion. I just want to thank Mike for providing such clear, detailed, and well-justified explanations of the principles and practice of the WP. Because of the WP's quantitative nature I have found it pretty easy to adapt the WP to my needs as a brand-new indoor rower. (Note: I'm a biologist by profession, so number crunching is something I enjoy.)

I started erging two weeks ago, doing some short (1'-2') intervals to see what kind of pace/rate combination would feel like work but wouldn't kill or injure me as the volume went up. To estimate a reference pace (since I had never rowed a 2K on an erg), I looked at my pace for the very short interval work at 16-20spm and back-calculated from the L4 charts to get a 2:04r. Of course, I hated to start with a ref pace above 2:00, but prudence prevailed over pride (at least so far ...).

Over the last two weeks I worked my way up to "half-WP" workouts -- e.g., 30' of L4, 6K L3. Looking forward to my first half-L1 (4x500) and half-L2 (2x2K) workouts this week. I another 3 weeks or so, when I expect to be able to do a "whole WP" series of workouts, I'll row a 2K test and perhaps re-adjust my ref pace. I must say that the ref pace is sort of "self-adjusting" anyhow, since the goal is to go a bit faster each time the same workout is repeated. I've been able to increase my volume while increasing my pace, too (luckily progress comes quickly and easily during the "addiction" phase).

I can see where some college athletes might view the WP as inflexible because of the strict pacing guidelines, but to me it seems much more flexible, adaptable, and sensible than the many other training plans I've looked at. Mike has certainly made it as painless as possible to try the WP by providing all the pacing guidelines, tables, examples of workouts, and helpful tips. Thanks, Mike!

Toby Bradshaw
mpukita
Toby:

You're about my age, and this sounds like a solid plan. I wish I had done this, your way, when I started in May. I "just rowed" from May until the beginning of November, when I started the WP. I very much like the structure ... although I would have been trying to not follow it as much as possible when I was in high school sports! Now, it makes life simple. Do what's in the plan and don't think about it too much. I spend my time structuring the workouts and the mini-sectors of the workout, to make them psychologically less demanding.

I make enough decisions as it is to have to also make them in my training!

smile.gif

As has been said before, "let the training dictate the training".

Good luck!

Regards -- Mark
arakawa
Confessions of a Wolverine Plan Newbie
First two weeks

Week 1
Level 1 / 8x500
  • target = 1:46.8
  • actual = 1:46.7, 1:46.8, 1:46.8, 1:46.8, 1:46.7, 1:46.7, 1:46.8; 1:45.5 --> ave = 1:46.6
Level 4 / 40'
  • target = 176/180/176/180 --> 9,186 m
  • actual = 174/180/180/182 (+4 strokes) --> 9,226 m (+40 m)
Level 2 / 5x1500
  • target = 1:56.8
  • actual = 1:56.7, 1:56.7, 1:56.7, 1:56.7, 1:53.4 --> ave = 1:56.0
non-WP endurance
  • actual = 9,401 m @ 17 SPM
Level 3 / 12k
  • target = 2:04.6
  • actual = 2:04.6
Level 4 / 60'
  • target = 176/180/176/180/176/180 --> 13,779 m
  • actual = 180/180/180/180/175/175 (+2 strokes) --> 13,869 m (+90 m)

Week 2
Level 1 / 4x1k
  • target = 1:50.8
  • actual = 1:50.8, 1:50.7, 1:50.6, 1:48.2 --> ave = 1:50.1
Level 4 / 40'
  • target = 176/180/184/176 --> 9,202 m
  • actual = 176/180/184/176 (+0 strokes) --> 9,290 m (+88 m)
Level 2 / 4x2k
  • target = 1:56.8
  • actual = 1:56.6, 1:56.4, 1:55.8, 1:53.8 --> ave = 1:55.7
Level 4 / 4x10'
  • target = 192/200/200^/204 --> 9,539 m
  • actual = 192/200/200/204 (+0 strokes) --> 9,632 m (+93 m)
Level 3 / 15x3'
  • target = 2:01.6
  • actual = 2:01.5, 2:01.5, 2:01.5, 2:01.3, 2:01.3, 2:01.1, 2:01.1, 2:01.0, 2:00.8, 2:00.6, 2:00.5, 2:00.3, 2:00.0, 1:58.7, 1:50.2 --> ave = 2:00.0
Level 4 / 60'
  • target = 176/180/184/188/176/172 --> 13,813 m
  • actual = 180/180/185/180/170/170 (-11 strokes) --> 13,963 m (+150 m)
Observations:
  • I'm still finding my pace for the level 1 through 3 stuff. I'm guessing it'll take a few more cycles through each workout, which will probably take me to the CRASH-B.
  • -11 strokes on my latest Level 4 / 60'! Although I could pat myself on the back for not overstroking, I understroked by nearly twice as much as I overstroked in the other 180' of Level 4 work combined over these last two weeks. I also went over by 150 m, so I'm in danger of getting ahead of myself on the Level 4 progression.
dougsurf
In Search of Wolverine

I'm missing something pretty basic. I'm astonished at these seven long pages on this topic. A strong testamony in itself. Tons of advanced topics, in depth detail on specific topics, lots of examples by users, tons of praise. The only thing I can't find in all of this is ... the plan.

I did a google search and found a 2001 paper that was a good introduction. But it's pretty general. Never gets to tying it all together and showing how the plan would/could run for say a month or so. It also stipulates 9 workouts per week, which doesn't sound consistent with some of what's here.

Anyway, I've gone on longer than I need to. Is there a book to buy somewhere, or some other place that I could find a primer on "The Plan"?

I'm actually a reasonably accomplished erger, but somewhat stalled and looking for something a bit different, which this sounds like.

Thanks,
Doug
49, 6:30
holm188
QUOTE(dougsurf @ Nov 23 2005, 01:45 PM)
In Search of Wolverine



Anyway, I've gone on longer than I need to. Is there a book to buy somewhere, or some other place that I could find a primer on "The Plan"?


*



Try
Wolverine Plan

there has also been other discussions on the UK forum. I have also a collection of older (but still up to date) things written by Mike online.

Hope that helps, Holm
mpukita
QUOTE(kjgress @ Nov 14 2005, 05:10 PM)
QUOTE(mpukita @ Nov 14 2005, 04:07 PM)
CONFESSIONS continued ...

the continuous pieces at constant pace are mental torture for me at this time.

Suggestions?
*



Look back through the literature (can't recall exactly where) Mike makes some comments and suggestions about breaking up long continuous sequences pace-wise to get some mental exercise in.
*



Did an L3, 12K continuous today, doing just as Mike suggested (breaking it up), and nailed the distance and pace without a break. Concentrating on hitting the pace, even when doing a Level 3 where one gets some independence on rate, takes the psychological burden off of one's mind. Neat. Wish I could do the same with my running.

mad.gif
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