This is where, IMHO, there is some misunderstanding regarding L3 intensity. The L3 should be done at a challenging pace; they are not recovery workouts. 2K pace x 1.156, was suggested as a starting point, but the pace should get faster as endurance improves.
I am currently doing them at 2K + 10, and progressively increasing the pace every week, and I find them challenging!

Cheers,

Francois

OK, so it's still intense, but it's much different than the L1 interval session. The mental game of maintaining a pace is still tough when fatigue sets in and there's still a long way to go. By no means did I mean this was a recovery pace for me.

[Note: I did 16.5k last week at 2:00.6, so I wanted to bump the pace. Guess what. I waited too long at night and we had a big meal, so half way through this I had to stop a bit. It was off and on to finish with a 2:05.1 average pace. But, at least I finished it. Next week, I'll stick with the 2:01 pace for this workout and make sure I start by 9:30PM, not 10:30.]

Finally, I understood the guideline for the long L3 workout was to maintain the pace and keep increasing the distance each week. (I got greedy on the pace, sorry). If we keep increasing the pace for Levels 1, 2, and 4 each week, then I think it makes sense to maintain the pace for Level 3 workouts. (Note, Level 4 pace increases would come with moving up the progressions, not changing the reference pace).

I feel your pain Mike, and to top it, I've never held a WR, so it's even worse for me!

Hi Bill,

My above remarks were not meant as a criticism of your training in particular, but of an observation of the fact that, for some of us, there is a wide gap between the paces at Level 2 and Level 3.

For instance, my level 1 covers paces from 1:39 to 1:43, my L2 is at 1:47 to 1:49, L3 is 1:52 to 1:54 and L4 is at an average of 2:00 (with variations from 1:54 to 2:06). So the full spectrum of paces is covered, and the gap between L2 and L3 is not wider that between the other levels.

Instead of a 16k at 2:01, I would suggest that you could occasionally do 3 x 4k with 1:00 rest at 1:58 or faster. It could also be 4 x 3k with 0:45 rest, a 6 x 2k with 0:30 rest, etc. The idea is to get a little rest so that your pace is faster than your 16k L3, but not too long, so that your HR stays elevated.
Also, those intervals don't need to be exactly at the same pace; one could, for instance, do 6 x 2K with 0:30 rest, descending 1 to 3 and 4 to 6. That is, you could do the first 2K at 2:00, the second at 1:58.5, the 3rd at 1:57 and repeat for the other 3 x 2K. This adds some variety and does wonder to your endurance.

Regards,

Francois

I found this post on another thread and, to be helpful, decided to paraphrase it here too.

To encourage myself to exercise more self discipline, which can help build character as well as physical fitness, I resolve to:

1) use the ignore feature on Mark Putika and Citroen's incoherent postings (as I have for some time) ... but also ...

2) to ignore even those snips of their postings that get copied into others' replies to his postings ... and ...

3) regardless of all this, to NEVER respond to any of their postings, whinings, begging for attention (even from Mike ) or personal messages unless they are rational, respectful, pleasant, and supportive of others and rowing and when they mention Mike's name.

Now, like kicking any habit, a support group is a necessity. Who's in?

We should also agree to remind one another if there are any slips, using personal messages to chastise in private (and adulate in public). However, please send your personal message, insults, whinings, begging etc to Mark Putika as he will appreciate them more than I would.

Instead of waiting, this is starting immediately.

My thought is if we do this, and everyone abides by these rules, this will be a better forum for all ... including Mark Putika and Citroen, even though they are psycho wackos and will never get the point of this anyway! In other words, lets find a way to pull the weeds from our garden ourselves!

I feel this is a sensible option to fix the problem, while still being kind. N'est pas?

-- Mark

Yes it was really Mark who wrote that and not me as I wouldn't waste my time doing such nonsensical (_ RAP.

Happy New Year!

Woo hoo! Result. I'm being ignored by the TROLL. I can be as rude as I like about John Troll Rupp.

Careful Citroen, he mentioned only ignoring your "incoherent postings", and those seem fairly rare.

I'm with you on this one. My L1 times are the same as yours, but they drop off after that. It's the same as when I swam in college. (I was a sprinter then and also played water polo). The 16k at 2:01 isn't a problem for me, and I'm looking to extend that workout each week.

IGNORE CITROEN THE TROLL!

Not necessarily. This has always been a little ambiguous. You could fix the distance and gradually increase pace, OR keep pace constant and gradually extend the distance, OR do a combination of both. Whatever feels more comfortable. I tend to do a little of both. I tend to start at some distance (e.g., 16-20K depending on my overall fitness when I start a training cycle), work the pace down by about 1 sec/500m over several weeks, add another 1K to the distance @ the same pace, work the pace down another second or so over several more weeks, add another 1K, etc. My general recommendation would be to work the distance up to at least an hour (which might be 12K for some folk and 17K for others). Someone who can’t fit so much volume into their training might limit their L3 row to the 10K/40’ range, but I would then hope that there is a 60’ L4 in the weekly schedule. In other words, to repeat a previous recommendation, I suggest at least one 60’ continuous endurance session per week.

If someone is only doing a single L3 row per week, I would suggest keeping it continuous (see previous comments for a complete explanation). Breaking a distance down into 3-4 segments with short rest breaks is also good training; in fact I do something similar with my 2nd weekly L3 workout. But if I were only doing one, I’d keep it continuous.

Mike Caviston

Mike:

Just to clarify ... this could be a 60'+ L3 or L4 workout?

I'm doing 3 to 4 continuous (as recommended) L4s at 60' each week, but maybe only one L3, and that would be less than 60', as it's now only 12K or so.

Thanks -- Mark

Mark –

I think L3 is the better format to maximize the benefits of a 60’-plus continuous session. So a goal for you might be to eventually extend your 12K to 15-16K. That doesn’t have to be your highest priority right now given the amount of L4 work you do, but maybe next year. Another recommendation I’ve made is that people keep their overall endurance volume at a ratio of roughly two L4 meters for every L3 meter. The actual L4 & L3 sessions might be formatted any number of ways and the actual number of workouts might vary from a couple longer sessions to several shorter ones, and be affected by a person’s total training volume (some people more, some less) and the schedule someone has to maintain (e.g., someone might not have a block of time suitable for longer workouts). So my comment was geared towards someone who isn’t training with a lot of volume but is trying to keep the overall 2:1 L4:L3 ratio. They might not have time to build their L3 row up to 60’ (which would be better overall), so hopefully they will at least have a Level 4 workout that reaches 60’. Hope that answers your question.

Mike Caviston

Yes, it does, thanks Mike. The L3s are the hardest for me mentally, even with all the little tricks you and others have suggested, or the ones I've dreamed up myself. I do need more of them, and longer, and faster, just need to get my head wrapped around 'em to get 'em done!

Mark:

Been out west for the last week and just got finished catching up on the thread. Sorry your 4 x 1K turned out as it did. Baby steps, baby steps. I agree with all the good advice your post solicited, however. Just one bad workout. Add 1.5 to 2 seconds and put it back into the rotation and move forward.

Thought I'd share my experiences with five workouts at an altititude of just under 6,000 feet. The effect on training was much more than I would have thought. My first day I started to do my 2K workout at the same target as home of 1:58 and just died after 750 meters or so. I ended up averaging 2:02 for my 2K workout. I really did not have much problem with my next day L4, but it is only a 40' 176 180 176 180. The L3 turned out around + 6 from my normal pace and then a "reasonable" L4. It seemed to me that my endurance was more affected than my strength. (Funny, this is the reverse of a post I read earlier on this thread.) Anyway with L1 next up in the rotation, I finally made an adjustment and started at 1:55 for the first 500 meter piece rather than the 1:51 or so I would have for a workout average of 1:49.5 I had gotten to with the 500's. What a difference when I finally simply adjusted my goals. I had negative splits until finishing at 1:48.4. Not great by "home" standards but amazing based on my week at 6K feet.

Anyway, my experience at altititude, in my shape (which is now around 60,000 meters per week for the last 4-5 weeks) is that strength was somewhat affected but not nearly as much as endurance, which was severely affected.

I'm just hoping that everything will be "back to normal" when I get home.

Jeff

Jeff:

Interesting post. I'm going on a ski trip the first week in February to Colorado. I think we're somewhere between 7K and 8K feet where we're staying. I'm trying to find a C2 somewhere nearby, and have been a bit anxious about how to set some target paces for the workouts at altitude, since I've never done any training at altitude. I guess it will require some trial and error to see what works. Your post can help me guage where to start, at least.

Thanks.

-- Mark

Thanks for sharing these wonderful tidbits!

You're most welcome John!

Back on track ... and a question about erg training in the cold ...

Back home from a family holiday between Christmas and the New Year. Did a LEVEL 2 workout, 5 x 1,500M, today and knocked .98 seconds off my prior best average pace. Much better than what appeared to be a dismal and/or mis-paced 4 x 1,000 LEVEL 1 last week. Altitude was not an issue at either location.

QUESTION: Today's workout was not that tough, and I wonder if rowing in a heated basement is the answer. For the past week or so, I've been rowing in an unheated garage -- temperatures anywhere from 25 to 40 degrees F (-4 to +5 degrees C). My attempt at a fast 4 x 1,000 last week failed badly. Today, in the heated room (yet still cool -- maybe 58-60 degrees F, about 15 degrees C), I felt much better. I know I run slower in the cold, but I chalk much of that up to the extra clothing, its weight, and its restrictions.

I'd be interested in how others row in cold vs. cool (or warm). How does it impact your speed and endurance?

How much warm-up do you do? For a 2K piece I have a 20 minute (~5K) warm-up routine.

http://www.concept2.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8738 discusses warm-up.

There's some details of a specific warm-up in http://www.powerbreathe.com/pdf/research-rowing.pdf
[See page 2, column 2 - Rowing warm-up (RWU).]

Personally, I think warming up is a waste of time. Which is why I’ve never talked about it. Certainly not on this thread. Especially not on Page 17.

Which, BTW, is a separate issue from the effects of ambient temperature. Personally, I do a better on long, continuous rows in a cooler environment (something like 48-58 deg F is probably optimal, though anything above freezing is not unprecedented). Getting just the right clothing and using a CBreeze or not depending on exact temp & humidity allows the exercise-generated heat to dissipate optimally. For race-pace work, a little warmer is better, though not too warm – 60-65 deg F is probably optimal. Cold air is tough on my airways under those conditions, and a little extra warmth seems to be good for maximizing muscle power output. Although a lot of internal heat is generated, there is time to cool down between intervals. The numbers I mention are just guesstimates, but the relative cooler for distance, warmer for sprints relationship works for me. During the dog days of July & August everything goes to h3ll – too much heat is counter-productive for any training.

Mike Caviston

Who hijacked this post??

Tom

Not sure what you mean Tom. Please explain.

Mike and Others,

I was curious if anyone had used a Wolverine-type plan for cycling.
I've been following the WP to train for the Crash-Bs and it's been working great. I feel I have a good shot to beat my PB from college. (I'm just glad they shortened the races to 2k).
After the Crash-Bs, I'm going back to amateur bike racing. I thought the WP training philosophy might translate well on the bike. L1 could be a 10 mile time trials, L2 as hill repeats, etc. I like the way you can observe your progress from week to week. I have used the periodization methods for the past few years and thought I'd look at other some ideas.

Any links, info or thoughts will be appreciated.

Back to the fun- 8x500's today.

Thanks,

Neil

I think he means that "Mikes" post doesn't sound much like Mike. I'm pretty certain that I have read a fair bit regarding the importance of a good warm-up coming from Mike, and the change to "a warm-up is a waste of time" is quite dramatic.

I'm not sure what's worse, anonymous provocateurs, or identity hi-jacking, but I'm pretty sure one is a crime.

Since he says he especially didn't talk about it on page 17, I am assuming there is a long post about warming up by Mike on that page. I clearly remember his addressing it somewhere in this thread. I think this post is Mike being sarcastic, and I think it's funny!

I also prefer to train in a cool environment around 60 deg F with a fan besides the erg. I also erg and run on my treadmill with just my underwear on! Must be a carry over from swimming in Speedos!

But this could be a problem if you are going to compete in a much warmer environment, as it happened to me last Summer. So, let me tell what you should not do to prepare yourself for running a 5K on a hot steamy day. Basically, I did all my running inside on a treadmill when it was warm outside. The treadmill was in the basement, the air conditioning was on, I had a big fan in front of the treadmill and I was running in my usual sexy underwear. I had no trouble running 5k at a 3:30 pace in those conditions. The problem happened on race day. It was a sunny, 90 deg F and very humid day, with no wind at all. After 2K at a 3:30 pace I started to feel very hot and thought I would just explode and die. I was gasping for air and my heart rate was at max. I ended up "running" at a 4:00 pace and barely made it under 19:00.

Conclusion: on one hand too much heat is counter-productive for training, yet on the other, one has to be able to handle the racing conditions. This is what is referred to as "heat acclimatization". It might not be that important for short events like 2K erging held in a relatively cool environment, but it certainly would have been crucial for my 5K race.

Cheers!

Francois

Dang! In a sarcasm context it's hillarious. But it sure went right over my head on the first pass. Not nearly as clear as his "USIRT" post for instance.

That's why I was confused ... I was afraid Tom misunderstood, as Mike is a warm-up fool (in a good way of course). He's made a science of the warm-up.

The general principles laid out in the Wolverine plan can probably be used in just about any sporting event in which both speed and endurance are important training goals. I have had experience both in bicycle racing as well as coaching young athletes in bicycle racing. Twenty years ago I started biking to exercise and try to get my middle aged body back into shape.

The two sports(rowing and bike racing) while having similar goals are almost at opposite ends of the endurance spectrum. The important ingredient in putting together any training plan is to have - A definitive but realistic goal (Crash-B 2k race, State time trial championships (biking)etc.) - A definitive timeline (Feb. 24 2006, State time trials June 2006 etc.) A definitive training plan with specific goals for each workout (each workout needs to have its own purpose and goal) and a means of measuring improvements from week to week from week one until the main event.

When I was training as well as when I coached bicycle racers the general plan I laid out was:

Day 1 (after a day of rest) Good warmup of at least 10-15 minutes - usually riding to the designated training route. This warm-up is repeated for each workout-
Sprint intervals- all out 100-200 meter out of the saddle sprints over a marked course. Pedal cadence -100-120 rpm. Record the elapsed time, and maximum speed achieved. Don't bother with HR except to note recovery time. Slow ride back to the start and repeat 5-10 times. When maximum speed begins to decline on successive intervals stop the sprint workout-
Each time you repeat this workout try to improve on the number of intervals you can perform and the maximum speed you attain. Keep track of the wind direction as well and other climate conditions.
Depending on the level of fitness this workout could be followed by an easy ride home or speed intervals. You might not want to do this workout in cold weather.

Speed intervals- Using a designated circuit 4-5 miles- , Ride for 1-2 miles at an elevated speed - (Cadence 90-100 rpm)keeping track of the Heart rate (80-85%VO2 max), avg speed and elapsed time- follow with 1 mile of recovery then repeat. Since the course changes in terrain etc. you cannot compare interval 1 with interval # 2 etc.- but if you use the same circuit every time you will have an idea of your progress for each segment. Do as many repeats as you can. When you begin to slow down your pace- it is time to go home. Each time you repeat this workout try to improve on avg mph and number of intervals.

Day 2 - Time trial intervals- After warm up, Using a designated route (does not have to be the same as on Day 1) Ride at moderately high intensity for 4 miles (but not as high as the speed intervals)- (cadence 80-90) keep track of your Heart rate, (should be about 75- 80% VO2 max), recover with easy riding until HR returns to 60% VO2 max, start next interval for 4 miles etc.

Day 3- Power intervals (Hill intervals)- Have a designated hill - approx. 1 mile climb. After warmup- start the hill in a low gear and maintain a steady cadence (70-80) , keep track of your Heart Rate (65-75% VO2 max), when you are about 100-200 meters from the top increase the gearing to the next highest gear and sprint to the top. Recover on the way down the hill. Make note of ET and AVG. speed and AVG. HR. Go back up the hill in the same gear you finished your 100 m sprint. Perform as many hill repeats as possible. When you are finished recover on the ride home.

Day 4- 25-30 mile steady paced ride over a designated course(cadence 85-95)- record time and avg speed. As the season progresses the ride gets longer and the avg speed increases .

Day 5- Same as day 4 but with more hills - If Day 5 is a Saturday it could be a group ride with other like minded cyclists. The group will generally dictate the pace. A good time to practice paceline riding, and bike handling in a group.

Day 6 40-50 mile bike ride. Nice leisurely pace- Recovery ride-

Day 7 rest- and carb up.

Early in the season (especially in cold climates) you might not want to work on the sprint intervals- Your training schedule will be altered depending on type of racing you will be doing (Criterium racing vs Road Racing) Preseason and in Season training will also differ. You will also have to take into account you individual strengths and weakness. However for each week and each day there should be a specific goal. If there is no goal you should not ride. A rest day is better than aimlessly adding up the miles.


"The only thing worse than having no goals in life is having goals and no PLAN to reach them!

I think you can probably find similarities in the above workouts with the Wolverine Plan. What is hard to duplicate and what makes the Wolverine plan unique is the spm variation of Level 4 training in the Wolverine plan. In cycling the terrain and other conditions will dictate the cadence whereas in ERGing the environmental conditions are relatively stable year round.

Ralph Giarnella MD
Southington, CT

Sarcasm is always tricky business. Sort of a two edged sword. I am overly fond of using it, but it has backfired on occasion. Sarcasm is at its best when it is especially subtle and that is when it is most likely to be misunderstood. There have been a lot of letters to newspaper editors that have left me completely in the dark. Did that person really mean the outrageous things that he/she had written or was it intended as sarcasm? Such things are often not at all clear.

regards,

Bob S.

Basically, I did all my running inside on a treadmill when it was warm outside. The treadmill was in the basement, the air conditioning was on, I had a big fan in front of the treadmill and I was running in my usual sexy underwear. I had no trouble running 5k at a 3:30 pace in those conditions. The problem happened on race day. It was a sunny, 90 deg F and very humid day, with no wind at all. After 2K at a 3:30 pace I started to feel very hot and thought I would just explode and die. I was gasping for air and my heart rate was at max. I ended up "running" at a 4:00 pace and barely made it under 19:00.

Francois

[/quote]

Just a note Francois. Running is quite different than rowing.

I know that in rowing people do not row very much faster in races than they can produce at home. Don't know why. Perhaps there is no adrenalin effect as in running.

I do not know of any runner who trains for a 5k event at their 5k race pace.

Running races produces far superior times than what you can acheive in training.

I averaged 3.39k pace for my two fastest marathons.

I would not have been able to run even 5k at this pace in training.

You may be tearing yourself apart even trying to get close to your race pace.

I would suggest that if you are capable of running 5k in training at 3.30 pace you should be able to run close to 3.10 pace in a race.

Regards,
Chris

[quote=cbrock,Jan 4 2006, 01:03 PM]
Basically, I did all my running inside on a treadmill when it was warm outside. The treadmill was in the basement, the air conditioning was on, I had a big fan in front of the treadmill and I was running in my usual sexy underwear. I had no trouble running 5k at a 3:30 pace in those conditions. The problem happened on race day. It was a sunny, 90 deg F and very humid day, with no wind at all. After 2K at a 3:30 pace I started to feel very hot and thought I would just explode and die. I was gasping for air and my heart rate was at max. I ended up "running" at a 4:00 pace and barely made it under 19:00.

Francois

[/quote]

Just a note Francois. Running is quite different than rowing.

I know that in rowing people do not row very much faster in races than they can produce at home. Don't know why. Perhaps there is no adrenalin effect as in running.


I do not know of any runner who trains for a 5k event at their 5k race pace.

Running races produces far superior times than what you can acheive in training.

I averaged 3.39k pace for my two fastest marathons.

I would not have been able to run even 5k at this pace in training.

You may be tearing yourself apart even trying to get close to your race pace.

I would suggest that if you are capable of running 5k in training at 3.30 pace you should be able to run close to 3.10 pace in a race.

Regards,
Chris

[/quote]

hello Chris,


being a former Track and field man, I don,t agree. In both running and erging I go a bit faster in racing but not that much.

And you not being able to run a 5 k in your marathonpace is very strange. A wel trained person can easely run a half marathon in his full marathon pace.

reg. hjs

[quote=hjs,Jan 4 2006, 08:16 AM]
[quote=cbrock,Jan 4 2006, 01:03 PM]
Basically, I did all my running inside on a treadmill when it was warm outside. The treadmill was in the basement, the air conditioning was on, I had a big fan in front of the treadmill and I was running in my usual sexy underwear. I had no trouble running 5k at a 3:30 pace in those conditions. The problem happened on race day. It was a sunny, 90 deg F and very humid day, with no wind at all. After 2K at a 3:30 pace I started to feel very hot and thought I would just explode and die. I was gasping for air and my heart rate was at max. I ended up "running" at a 4:00 pace and barely made it under 19:00.

Francois

[/quote]

Just a note Francois. Running is quite different than rowing.

I know that in rowing people do not row very much faster in races than they can produce at home. Don't know why. Perhaps there is no adrenalin effect as in running.


I do not know of any runner who trains for a 5k event at their 5k race pace.

Running races produces far superior times than what you can acheive in training.

I averaged 3.39k pace for my two fastest marathons.

I would not have been able to run even 5k at this pace in training.

You may be tearing yourself apart even trying to get close to your race pace.

I would suggest that if you are capable of running 5k in training at 3.30 pace you should be able to run close to 3.10 pace in a race.

Regards,
Chris

[/quote]

hello Chris,


being a former Track and field man, I don,t agree. In both running and erging I go a bit faster in racing but not that much.

And you not being able to run a 5 k in your marathonpace is very strange. A wel trained person can easely run a half marathon in his full marathon pace.

reg. hjs

[/quote]
I think Francois should post a picture of himself running in his "sexy" underwear. Not sure I can generate a clear enough mental picture. It may be the underwear that's slowing him down (or speeding him up). I've seen some women wearing those crazy thong things that just cannot possibly be conducive to a fast pace, and could be quite harmful to their health if worn without proper reading of the instructions and/or adult supervision.

(Bob - how's that for subtle sarcasm?)

Maybe they run faster because they are trying to escape from their "indian underwear" (sorry to be politacally incorrect, but that's underwear that creeps up behind you)

Another good way to run faster than you can is to do it late at night, alone, and wear hoop earings. The wind going through the hoops sounds very spooky and if you don't realize what's doing it, you run faster and faster and it gets louder! yes, that happened to me in college....best 6 mile time I ever did.

This thread is getting hopelessly off track. Anyone do a good Level 4 workout lately?

I agree with hjs. When I am doing a quality workout, I can get close to racing pace, whether in swimming, biking running or erging. It should be easy to run a 5k at marathon pace. When you averaged 3:39 per km for your marathon (2:34), you should, in theory, have been able to race a 5k at about 3:14 pace, according to my running books.

Regarding the adrenaline effect, I think it is at play in all races, and it has to be kept under control as it is a double-edged sword. The great advantage on the erg is that you always know your pace. In running, you only get a first glimpse at it at the first km marker (or even worse, at the first mile), which is too late if you started too fast.

Francois

Carla (he says hoping to get this back on track):

No, I had a dismal L4 yesterday ... started out as a 60' piece but the 5 x 1,500M L2 the day before, with an easy 5K @ 20SPM afterwards, was just too much work for my lower back in one day. After 30' I had to stop the L4 and go stretch ... just tightness in the lower back, no injury or anything like that ... it's a fatigue thing for me. Anyway, it ended up being a 180/188/180 and over by 42M (probably because I was pacing a bit faster ... rather than slower ... than target).

I'm anal about getting in daily meters, so I probably overdo it more than I should at my level of fitness. I should probably take a day off now and again, or go really easy as I will today as a recovery day.

How about you?

-- Mark

PS/NB - Indian Underwear ehh? Never heard that one before ... like it.

Yep, just me being a smartypants. I didn’t think I was being so subtle, though I refuse to use any lame “smilies” to telegraph my intent. Should I be concerned that nobody seems to remember how much time I have spent talking about warm-up? That kind of affects my motivation to continue expanding my comments on the WP.

Mike Caviston

Mike, Your comments on proper warm-up have not gone unnoticed.
As I have mentioned in a previous post, they have help me in achieving a huge improvement on my PB.

Your efforts at clarifying and expanding the WP are very much appreciated. Thanks!

Regards,

Francois

Cheers, Francois!

Mike Caviston

A major point I’ve been trying to get across regarding the Wolverine Plan is that in my view there are certain key elements any training program should address and vital characteristics any program should include. Vital characteristics include a scientific basis, good organization and structure, a goal-directed approach with a means for quantifying performance and progress, a history of success, etc. Key elements include addressing the relevant energy pathways in the correct proportions and sport-specific elements that affect performance. In the case of rowing this means maximizing the potential of the aerobic pathway as the major producer of ATP during a 2K, but also acknowledging the essential contribution of the LAS (Lactic Acid System, or anaerobic glycolysis) and developing that as well. It also means addressing key technical issues like ratio, stroke length, control of stroke rate and power production, and isolating the optimal strategy for pacing to obtain an individual’s best possible performance.

I’ve tried to state plainly that the WP is only one possible way of addressing these key issues. Other training programs address them as well, some more correctly or completely than others. If I discover something that works better than the WP, I’ll share. If someone else comes up with something that I think will work better than the WP, I’ll switch.

I’m not sure how well some of the specific elements of the WP translate to cycling (such as Level 4). When I was with the UMichigan team we created some WP protocols for stationary bike for injured athletes who had to stay off the erg or water. But the intent was to maintain some semblance of rowing fitness and we never really quantified improvement on the bike. To translate some WP ideals to actual road racing, I would start by determining as exactly as possible the specific demands of your potential cycling event(s) – distance, intensity, terrain, etc. – and structuring the training accordingly.

I agree completely and have commented previously on the uniqueness of indoor rowing and having stable conditions for quantifying performance. This is why I discourage the use of HR or LACT as markers of intensity when the pace on the monitor is so clearly the relevant variable. Cycling outdoors, I would probably rely on HR to some extent to help adjust for differences in velocity resulting from variable terrain and wind. I have come across references to cycling training that involves higher or lower cadences than optimal for performance, to elicit a specific training effect (similar to L4 rowing). I am thinking about this less in the abstract and more in the concrete as I hope to get back out on the road again for some serious distance touring one of these years (if I can just make up my mind to bow out of competitive indoor rowing, at least temporarily). I’ve done 2, 3, and 4-day rides across Michigan, but one day I want to go cross country (specifically, Portland, ME to Portland, OR). That will require some specific training.

It occurs to me that one aspect of training for rowing I would consider applying to cycling is the occasional use of a good cycling ergometer even when the great outdoors remains available. I think it is useful to do some sort of criterion workout under stable conditions. I think it is extremely valuable for rowing teams to get in a couple of good erg sessions per week even during the heart of the outdoor season. This makes it possible to count on a couple of sessions that will maximize physiological development without having to worry about the vagaries of wind, water conditions, bladework, and other things that might disrupt the effectiveness of an on-water workout. Or maybe I’m the only one to notice that the balance of power in women’s collegiate rowing in the US remains in the Northeast and Midwest – areas of the country with long harsh winters where teams spend a significant portion of the year training indoors – and not regions where teams are able to train outdoors year- round. (Notwithstanding the obvious success of programs like Cal or Virginia.)

Not sure how I wound up at this point so I’ll stop now…

Mike Caviston

Mike,

I would disagree with that. When I took up bike touring (solo, self-supported) a decade ago, I just started out easy and let the trip do the training. I did the same thing on a long backpack in Europe (Arles to Finisterra, about 1 kilomile, in the year 2000). I set relatively easy goals for the first few day and just let the body harden up. It is different, of course, if you have a limited time to do a certain distance goal and have to be in condition to meet a tight schedule. It would also be different if you are with a group that is fast-paced. I didn't have either of those constrains, so I could just do my own thing.

regards,
Bob S.

P.S. I just wanted to add my thanks for the warmup article. You had announced earlier that you were planning on posting it. I was looking forward to it and was pleased when you came through.

Ralph- Your advice is much appreciated. Sounds like more than few rowers also cycle. Or is it cyclist who row?
I will give your workouts a try after the crash-bs. Those hill repeats sound tough with the increasing gearing. Thanks.

Mike-Thanks for all your advice. The L4 stuff has really made a big difference in my rowing. It's great that these topics are available.

As for your cross country trek, I have to agree with Bob S., that you would have no trouble with it. The summer after college, I went from Montreal to Seattle with some friends. We didn't train specifically for the ride. We eased into it and after a week even 100 miles a day seemed pretty easy- especially when you've got all day.

Back to the WP and sorry for the digression.

Regards,

Neil

Misery loves company so it is comforting to hear that I am not only one having problems.- Up until two weeks ago I was going along just fine with the program. I had the level 4 workouts finally figured out, the meters were piling up at record numbers when I realized that I was beginning to reach the point of possibly overtraining. I tried cutting back a little but it was too late- I got hit with a viral illness which made it all but impossible to workout for almost a week. Fortunately the bug hit just before the Holiday weekend so I was able to get plenty of rest.

I was able to get back into the swing of things last week after the Holiday and had 2 excellent training sessions (Level 4 and 3). However last Thursday after I had done my level 3 session in the am with a total of 17k, the rowing instructor asked if I would participate in a 4x1k relay team competition in the afternoon. I couldn't turn down a challenge. After a good warm up of about 4K I was ready and volunteered to go last. I wanted the 3 ladies to go first- I wasn't being chivalrous- I just wanted to be sure I knew what times the other participants had. After all I could not let 3 women beat my time.

The instructor was the third rower and put in a blistering pace. I started strong and had successively faster 200 m splits going at a higher pace than my previous best- the last 200 meters my form began to deteriorate from fatigue and I managed to have a split just slightly slower than the 4th 200 meter split. I beat my previous best 1k of 2 weeks ago by 2.3sec. and my best 1K from 1 month ago by 10 sec, but most importantly for my ego I beat the instructor by 5 seconds.

However I paid for the effort for next several days- I must have pulled a muscle because I had to take several days off again because of my back. It is a recurrence of an injury I sustained last year when I was training for the Crash-B.

Today I was able to gingerly start my rowing again. I did a 7 k warm up with slowly increasing intensity with plenty of stretching every 2 k. I did not push the workout today. My back feels better today and hopefully tomorrow I can back to doing a full level 4 workout.

I have to keep reminding myself that I will be 65 next week and that I should stop trying to impress the young ladies. Probably the only one I impressed was myself.



Mike I would suggest that the cross country bike ride should be from Portland OR to Portlan Me- the prevailing winds are West to East and the hardest part of the trip is in the West with the Rocky Mountains.



Mike I think most of us appreciate the work you have done on this forum. I have personally archived, disected and outlined each and every one of your posts. Perhaps someone should compile a list of FAQ with your answers so that when a question is asked that has been previously answered the person can be sent to the Wolverine FAQ.

Ralph Giarnella MD
Southington, CT

I agree - completely.

Excellent idea Ralph!

FAQ #1 - Am I working hard enough if I can complete a 40' L4 session without breaking a sweat? How often, if ever do I adjust my reference pace?

Thanks,
Mark

Mark,

I was beggining to think I was the only one that found the handle "heavy" the day after an interval. I've come to the conclusion that a "slow" row where the target pace for the 60 min might drop from 2:00 to 2:02.5 after an interval day is the way to go for me. It certianly puts the joy back into training and each subsequent 1sec slower /500m feels like an enormous relief. I've had to adjust my thinking from going fast to going far , relatively speaking. Too much intensity too often has proved counter productive for me I have to admit. The outcome of this adjusted thinking is a more interval focused training, thats where I satisfy my urge to push hard. This new year I may look to getting a latic acid tester which would improve my intuition of how hard I can push on a given day. Its been a long road getting to this conclusion. I'm trading perceived effort for intelligent structured training. Its amazing how much difference training to a plan has already made !

Regards
Ray

Francois,
I probably did not make it clear what I was trying to say.

If you are training for a specific running race distance, then obviuosly you need to train faster than your race pace in an attempt to reach your goals.

You break up the distance in order to achieve this pace.

For example if you are trying to get a good 5k time then you would do a lot of 400m or 1K intervals at faster than race pace.

You would not simply just run 5k in training as hard as you can every time in an effort to get close to your optimium pace or time.

This is where I think rowing is quite different than running.

People seem to be able to row as well in training for 2k as they can in a race environment.

I would doubt that any world record holder in running events has ever broken their record in training.

Conversely a number of rowers have done exactly that. They have posted faster times in training at home by themselves.

Hope this makes it a bit clearer.

Regards,
Chris

PS: My best 5k RACE was 16:15.
What I said was that I struggled to train over 5k at my MARATHON pace.

Too many people in running train too close to their racing pace over longer distances and either break down or never achieve their optimum results.

Francois,
I probably did not make it clear what I was trying to say.

If you are training for a specific running race distance, then obviuosly you need to train faster than your race pace in an attempt to reach your goals.

You break up the distance in order to achieve this pace.

For example if you are trying to get a good 5k time then you would do a lot of 400m or 1K intervals at faster than race pace.

You would not simply just run 5k in training as hard as you can every time in an effort to get close to your optimium pace or time.

This is where I think rowing is quite different than running.

People seem to be able to row as well in training for 2k as they can in a race environment.

I would doubt that any world record holder in running events has ever broken their record in training.

Conversely a number of rowers have done exactly that. They have posted faster times in training at home by themselves.

Hope this makes it a bit clearer.

Regards,
Chris

PS: My best 5k RACE was 16:15.
What I said was that I struggled to train over 5k at my MARATHON pace.

Too many people in running train too close to their racing pace over longer distances and either break down or never achieve their optimum results.

[/quote]


The reason ergers row sometimes at best in training/at home is maybe due to the fact that races are mostly just 2 K, so the other distances simply have to be done during training.
Another thing is that erging is for toprowers not a priority, it's just a form of training, they don't race must at all, some of them never do, they just train.

Ray:

I think there is something to the fact that my body is 47 but my mind is still in high school or university. I certainly don't feel 47 (or 37 for that matter).

I have been a guy for whom rest is taken when I'm falling asleep. I agree with you that the day after an interval workout is probably a good day for us to back off a bit. I was doing an L4 after any L1 or L2, thinking it was an "easy" workout. Now I'm at the point where the L4s are getting challenging, so perhaps it's best to just do an hour "recovery" row at lower pace and work on perfecting technique (or something). I guess there is a fine line between dogging it, and doing a slow row to allow one's body to recover from a significant amount of work.

Or, maybe I just need more aerobic base building so the interval sessions are not as taxing and recovery comes faster. There are no easy answers are there?



That's what makes it fun!

Cheers ... Mark

As an older guy who continues to tinker w/ the balance between intensity, duration, and frequency of workouts, I offer a couple of observations:

Perhaps you are pushing too hard in the interval sessions. Intervals are part of an overall plan, and if you perform them in a fashion that causes other parts of the plan to go wonky, them perhaps you're doing the intervals at too high an intensity, for too long, or too frequently.

If the level 4 workouts are too tough, perhaps the remedy is simply to back down the intensity while still performing a level 4. This could be done either by taking down the pace or going to a less demanding progression. If you're following the Wolverine Plan, follow the plan.

(I don't follow the plan. I try to incorporate the basic concepts while doing rate-capped longer rows and Wolverine-based intervals.)

Younger athletes recover more quickly than older guys, and hence can do more work. Any plan has to include appropriate recovery for the particular individual, probably in the form both of rest and less-demanding workouts.

Finally, I'd suggest that doing lots of training on the erg at race paces will do you in. The reason people set records at home on the erg is because that's the only place you can race for most distances. Relative newcomers to the erg will have the heady experience of setting new PBs regularly, but eventually, they too get to the point where PBs are rare, or perhaps as in my case, a thing of the past.

Tom

Tom:

I didn't mean to impy the L4s were too tough, they're just not "recovery rows" as one would think of a day when one just "puts in" meters to warm up and loosen up after a hard workout day.

I've been following the Plan pretty closely, using the proper reference pace, not changing it but "moving up the chart", etc. I don't feel doing one L1 workout every other week, and one L2 workout every other week (during the weeks when I don't do an L1) is too much speed training. I'd propose that without the L1 and L2 workouts, it would be very hard to improve one's 2K time if one is focused on that (as I am).

My error, being a newbie, was getting to the right pace with the L1 and L2 workouts ... I started too conservatively and the workouts were not much of an effort. I then started knocking seconds off of the paces for these workouts, and still felt I had not reached what I refer to as my "current training limit". Then, I did this with a 4x1000 over the holidays and "hit the wall" (so to speak). That's OK, because I feel I am now where I need to be with that workout, and I know what safe target pace to shoot for. It will also help me validate the paces for the other L1 workouts -- at least within some reasonable range ... and I guess could be extrapolated to suggest what paces might be "my wall" for L2 workouts as well.

I believe the error I made was coming up with paces for these using just 500M pace times rather than watts. When Mike says something like "90% of reference pace" I took the seconds for my reference pace, and divided by .9. I haven't gone through the math, but I believe that 90% of the energy (watts) level would give a faster pace than what I calculated. Maybe I'm off base here, but I think this was my error. Therefore, all of my initial paces were too slow, except for L4s, which are hard to mess up because of the tables.

I'd be interested in comments on whether the watts issue is truly where I messed up from those that have this down cold.

Thanks!

Regards -- Mark